Gut loading horned worms

Had recently gotten several horned worms for girl. I was trying to gut load with some spinach... after 24 hours I had 3 dead horned worms. Previously when I hadn't try to gut load (dusted those before feeding) they all stayed with several getting huge. What's the best thing to gut load these buggers??? I've read different sites and can't seem to a definitive answer. So please give me some knowledge on what they can eat that doesn't kill them.
 

janjan20

Chameleon Enthusiast
I usually just dip any feeders that don’t gutload well in a semi thick mix of water and gut-load, then dust, then immediately feed. Doesn’t matter that the gutload isn’t actually inside the feeder, accomplishes the same thing.
I never thought of this! Lol! Thanks for the info!
 
I usually just dip any feeders that don’t gutload well in a semi thick mix of water and gut-load, then dust, then immediately feed. Doesn’t matter that the gutload isn’t actually inside the feeder, accomplishes the same thing.
Absolutely genius... I wouldn't have thought about doing it like that. Thank you.
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
I usually just dip any feeders that don’t gutload well in a semi thick mix of water and gut-load, then dust, then immediately feed. Doesn’t matter that the gutload isn’t actually inside the feeder, accomplishes the same thing.
I'm not sure about this. I do this a lot as well, but my understanding is that the insect needs to partially break it down for the chameleons to be able to absorb. Even humans have trouble absorbing certain things and we're omnivores built for it. So I'm not sure if much, or any of it is getting through when they just eat the gutload. If you happen to have any info regarding it though I'd be interested. If they utilize micronutrients this way, It'd make things a lot easier lol.
 

Brodybreaux25

Chameleon Enthusiast
I'm not sure about this. I do this a lot as well, but my understanding is that the insect needs to partially break it down for the chameleons to be able to absorb. Even humans have trouble absorbing certain things and we're omnivores built for it. So I'm not sure if much, or any of it is getting through when they just eat the gutload. If you happen to have any info regarding it though I'd be interested. If they utilize micronutrients this way, It'd make things a lot easier lol.
I have no evidence or proof of what I’m claiming here, pre-digestion may very well be a critical factor. But one thing I do know, it’s better than no gut load at all.
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
I have no evidence or proof of what I’m claiming here, pre-digestion may very well be a critical factor. But one thing I do know, it’s better than no gut load at all.
Ahhh I just wasn't sure if maybe you read something somewhere about this. I agree though. I make it a point to sprinkle different powdered gutload on nearly all of my feeders. Never had much hope that it was doing a whole lot, but I can't say for certain. Can't go wrong doing that + gutloading the feeders. A little bit of it at least has to be getting into them.
 

janjan20

Chameleon Enthusiast
I'm not sure about this. I do this a lot as well, but my understanding is that the insect needs to partially break it down for the chameleons to be able to absorb. Even humans have trouble absorbing certain things and we're omnivores built for it. So I'm not sure if much, or any of it is getting through when they just eat the gutload. If you happen to have any info regarding it though I'd be interested. If they utilize micronutrients this way, It'd make things a lot easier lol.
I agree, If a Cham doesn’t have a specific enzyme to break down a particular food then the feeder may have the ability to do it. Bacteria and enzymes help break things down to draw out the nutrients. I once did a culture on my last cham’s stool and he pretty much had the same enteric bacteria as we do. It was pretty cool. I love bacteria lol!
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
I agree, If a Cham doesn’t have a specific enzyme to break down a particular food then the feeder may have the ability to do it. Bacteria and enzymes help break things down to draw out the nutrients. I once did a culture on my last cham’s stool and he pretty much had the same enteric bacteria as we do. It was pretty cool. I love bacteria lol!
Interesting, I don't know much about bacteria other than basics. Common sense would tell me similar bacteria inhabit the same places around the world, whether it be soil or intestines?
 
Different creatures have the ability to digest different things, that is correct. Bacteria plays a big roll in this! The (prefered) food in the intestines of one creature could kill another (if one were to only look at the digestion aspect and nothing else)! Take termites for instance, they can eat wood! I certainly can not! But humans can eat termites! The termites (and any other specialized feeder) can eat their unique food source because of their intestinal environment (microcosmos) created by their body. This is accomplished by pH balance, digestive enzyme production and secretion (the enzymes are preferential food of the creature specific) and by the kind of bacteria living in the intestines of that specific creature. I do not have the same microcosmos in my intestines as a termite does so I can not eat wood! If I were to eat termites, for the time frame that the digesting termites I ingested travel through my intestines I will have a more complete digestion of other wood like fibers such as what is in asparagus stems. Once the termites and their enzymes leaves my intestinal tract that slight benefit is gone again. The digestion of wood like fibers would still however be more complete, more thorough, in the controlled, sequentially timed intestinal tract brewing recipe of the termites! We, and so also chameleons, benefit in marvelous ways from the things we eat.
 

janjan20

Chameleon Enthusiast
Interesting, I don't know much about bacteria other than basics. Common sense would tell me similar bacteria inhabit the same places around the world, whether it be soil or intestines?
After culturing the stool I would say yes lol...
Different creatures have the ability to digest different things, that is correct. Bacteria plays a big roll in this! The (prefered) food in the intestines of one creature could kill another (if one were to only look at the digestion aspect and nothing else)! Take termites for instance, they can eat wood! I certainly can not! But humans can eat termites! The termites (and any other specialized feeder) can eat their unique food source because of their intestinal environment (microcosmos) created by their body. This is accomplished by pH balance, digestive enzyme production and secretion (the enzymes are preferential food of the creature specific) and by the kind of bacteria living in the intestines of that specific creature. I do not have the same microcosmos in my intestines as a termite does so I can not eat wood! If I were to eat termites, for the time frame that the digesting termites I ingested travel through my intestines I will have a more complete digestion of other wood like fibers such as what is in asparagus stems. Once the termites and their enzymes leaves my intestinal tract that slight benefit is gone again. The digestion of wood like fibers would still however be more complete, more thorough, in the controlled, sequentially timed intestinal tract brewing recipe of the termites! We, and so also chameleons, benefit in marvelous ways from the things we eat.
Yessss!! Perfect way to paint a picture on the difference in digestion. There is always a balance in nature and how we function.
 
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