Gular Edema

[jannb]

jannb said..."Dr. Alfonso said it could be from under supplementation or over supplementation."...what was it about the water that he said caused the problem??

Brad...since beta carotene can't build up in the system, why do you think it has something to do with it? Just curious....trying to understand.

Camille also had the white power around her nostrils so I kept thinking I was over supplementing but then my daughter (Lbesok) who has many chams told me she thought it was our water. Our water had never bothered Luie before so at first I didn't think it could be the water but after trying for months to adjust the supplements I started buying bottled water and in 3 weeks the edma was gone. I now think it was the minerals from the water and the water softner.

 

[Titan]

JannB, I would guess the white powder at the nostrils was a result of salts from your water softener.

 

[jannb]

JannB, I would guess the white powder at the nostrils was a result of salts from your water softener.

Yes, I think so too.....and probably caused the swelling in her neck. Now that we have the Reverse Osmosis Water System she's not had any problems at all.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I use dandelion and carrots Extensively in my gutloading. Id say those two items form almost half of my wet gutloading. Even the silkworms eat dandelion. Have not noticed any edema as a result.

 

[kinyonga]

jannb...now it makes sense to me. I have always used tap water so it has minerals in it and I have never had any problems with gular edema (with the exception of one pardalis when gravid and one old female fischer's many many years ago when I didn't know much. However, I can understand why a water softener could make a difference.

Eric said..."some premade foods, chick starters, rabbit foods with vitamins added, baby cereals, all sorts of grains. Or, adding multivitamins WITH preformed vitamin A to the cricket food"...I don't use any chick starters/feeds or food made for other animals. I also don't use commercial insect foods. My crickets are not raised by me (but they are fed by me before I use them) thus I have no control over what they have been fed before I got them...so if crickets can retain or produce preformed vitamin A my chameleons could get a bit from their body content. (Could them being fed other things before I get them really make the difference...I generally buy 3/4's and grow them up?)

I give none of my chameleons or other reptiles any preformed vitamin A at all and yet as I said above, I don't see gular edema or signs of vitamin A deficiency either. As you know my veileds live quite long healthy lives.

I did have problems with edema (2 examples I cited) and the odd case of MBD when I used Nekton-rep (that contained preformed vitamin A)....close to 20 years ago.

 

[Titan]

So from what I have gathered from this post so far, is It could be attributed to a lake of minerals? Especially around pregnacy? Even miss Lily said hers reduced after good hydration?

Edit: Miss Lilly's statement: "I do notice that the days when Lily drinks more the swelling is not so noticeable and even disappears completely."
__________________

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Nekton rep is fnny Kinyonga. It contains so much vitamin A, the A3 ratio is 100, or 1000 to one, I think. EVERY single case I saw that was diagnosed by a vet to be hypervitaminosis A was linked to nekton rep.

This is why I used reptivite - my friend Pete told me it had the lowest percentage of vitamin A, whereas nekton was damn near toxic.

Here is an interesting observation.

I kept chameleons for 15+ years. In that time, I had one case of edema, and that was last year.

Early on, I gave them repcal and reptivite. When herptivite came out, I used that and repcal - no more reptivite. This continued for a good 10 years without any issues.

I started to use reptivite again, a couple years back, when I got melleri and deremensis. I wanted to "make sure" they got vitamin A, since studies showed they might not be able to use the beta carotene in herptivite and veggies.

Everything was fine.

My daughter dumped the reptivite, and I just didnt' use it for months. A gravid veiled developed slight gular edema. I got some fluker's with preformed A,a nd in less than 2 weeks, it was gone for good.

Strange, yes. But there is another variable. Throughout all my time with chameleons, their staple has been commercially raised crickets. Last year I had enogh dubia to make the roaches the main staple. Roaches I raised from beginning to the end. I gave them fresh foods, some commercial foods, but nothing with additional vitamins (except the C in guniea pig food).

Comercial crickets eat god-knows what. I know many used to use chick starter, and some of them are very high in preformed vitamin A.

so, the possibility that commercial feeders may retain some preformed vitamin A is supported by what happened to me. Not great support, sure, but it does fit.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I'm thinking there may be something to the idea of commercially raised crickets being a source of preformed vitamin A.

I dont use commercial gutloads, and nothing I put into my gutloads contains preformed vitamin a, nor do I use a supplement with preformed A. Yet I have healthy chameleons.

This led me to suppose that there was no real need for Preformed A. However so many seem to feel otherwise, I began to wonder if my chameleons get it indirectly.

I raise most of my own feeders. But I buy adult crickets, which I keep and feed my home made gutload for at least 24 hours (usually more like a week) before feeding off. I dont offer crickets at every meal, but most weeks there are a least a few crickets in the mix.

The only other source I could come up with were the Isopods (pill bugs / wood sows) that I breed. These make up a very very small part of the prey list but as they occassionally get a tiny bit of egg or a piece of dog food kibble, they might retain and transfer very small amounts of preformed vitamin A.

Any preformed A my chameleons get would be indirect, infrequent and in very tiny amounts. This seems to be sufficient. So I'd say be wary of using a supplement that contains preformed vitamin A for anything other than very infrequent use.

Is there evidence that beta carotene contributes to edema or any other issue? I use a heck of a lot of beta carotene containing gut load, and the vitamin supplement I use about twice a month also contains beta carotene. I thought this could not build up and could not cause issues. I'd like to know if anyone feels differently or has evidence to the contrary?

 

[kinyonga]

Sandrachameleon...I have used carrots, dandelions and a number of other greens and veggies that have lots of beta carotene in them but I don't see any gular edema in my chameleons.

I would very much like to know how long vitamin A would stay in a cricket (stored...not just passing through) and how much would actually be in them from eating chick feed, etc. I don't know how much they would ingest in their lives from birth until they reach 3/4 size...but I would like to know.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Thank you all for your help regarding this. She is still swollen, I thought perhaps it was a bit less today, but it's hard to tell.
She eats, drinks and moves about as if nothing is wrong, her urates are still very white.
I have removed carrots from the gut load for now. I have dosed her with vitamin A and am continuing with no D3 calcium at all feedings since she is producing eggs.
No vet visit is planned at this point, I highly suspect this is a result of her being gravid and as long as she is otherwise healthy and eating, I want to wait and see if the edema subsides after she lays (in approximately 2 weeks).
Again, I appreciate all the information and sharing of experiences, I will keep you posted on her condition and continue to welcome your thoughts.

-Brad

 

[chamelisa]

Thank you all for your help regarding this. She is still swollen, I thought perhaps it was a bit less today, but it's hard to tell.
She eats, drinks and moves about as if nothing is wrong, her urates are still very white.
I have removed carrots from the gut load for now. I have dosed her with vitamin A and am continuing with no D3 calcium at all feedings since she is producing eggs.
No vet visit is planned at this point, I highly suspect this is a result of her being gravid and as long as she is otherwise healthy and eating, I want to wait and see if the edema subsides after she lays (in approximately 2 weeks).
Again, I appreciate all the information and sharing of experiences, I will keep you posted on her condition and continue to welcome your thoughts.

-Brad

Hey Brad!

I had a female dwarf panther that had an extreme case of edema just before she would lay eggs. My vet, Dr. Stein, said there really wasn't any known method of ridding them of edema unless you can find the culprit. She was too small to run any bloodwork. One vet explained it as a blockage in the circulatory system, be it parasites, egg production, and injury, etc. The blockage created a build up of fluids.

She was clear of parasites so there was little we could really do for her.

Dr. Stein said we could try Lupron injections (they use it on ferrets) on my little ceph. The edema would subside right after a clutch was laid. But as she approached the end of gestation, the edema worsened. It was in her neck, up to her tiny little shoulders, in the turrets of her eyes. It interfered with her eating too.

She was a true tropper. Her final clutch was laid and the edema subsided, but she died about two weeks later.

This probably isn't much help. I just wanted to share my experience.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Thank you for posting Elisa.
I think it's all helpful and interesting that so many cases are associated with being gravid.

-Brad

 

[Sepioteuthis]

I'm also dealing with my first case of edema and it's also in a gravid female - a jacksonii.
Some days it's very obvious while on other days I wonder if I'm imagining things.
I also dust very occasionally with vitamins and there are no (other) signs of dehydration.
She still has at least 3 month left on her gestation, so it'll be a while before we'll know if her being gravid has anything to do with it. I'll let you know, though, if anything changes.

 

[Miss Lily]

Thank you for posting Elisa.
I think it's all helpful and interesting that so many cases are associated with being gravid.

-Brad

I went to buy more livefood for Lily today from where I got her, and the owner of the store said that one of their females at home had just laid and also had gular edema. Lily laid on Sunday and still has her baggy neck - she now has a saggy belly to match after laying all those eggs!

 

[summoner12]

Good info!

Camille also had the white power around her nostrils so I kept thinking I was over supplementing but then my daughter (Lbesok) who has many chams told me she thought it was our water. Our water had never bothered Luie before so at first I didn't think it could be the water but after trying for months to adjust the supplements I started buying bottled water and in 3 weeks the edma was gone. I now think it was the minerals from the water and the water softner.

Every case I have seen personally, of gular edema in a gravid female, was a result of too little vitamin A.


Seen it with melleri and jacksonii a bunch of times - all the same issue. No preformed A in their diet. Cleared up in weeks.

good thread guys. Lenny is showing edema right now after laying her eggs two weeks ago. I feel shes had some edema on and off again. I am working on an RO system right now and will start dusting her Roaches with reptivite.


here she is sleeping.

here she is in the morning.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Alice has not laid her eggs yet, but since the changes I have made for her (check previous post) the edema has disappeared.
She has looked good for several days now and is starting to get antzy ... laying should be soon.

-Brad

 

[sandrachameleon]

Thanks for the update Brad. I'm going to watch my gravid females in future carefully to see if perhaps I was just failing to notice a little edema. If so, I'll try reducing the beta carotene during that time.

Good luck Alice!

 

[jannb]

Glad to hear that the edema's gone. Good luck with the egg laying.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Here are some pictures of my sweet translucent girl with edema all gone and eggs coming soon!
She actually did some digging today, nothing too serious ... but the first time she has ever done that.
She's not quite ready ... it's only day 23

-Brad

 

[summoner12]

My female was digging on day 14.... is it always spot on?