Furcifer campani

spadefish

Member
There have been repeated ads on Kingsnake for pairs of this species. Did I miss something? Or did export open up for them in the recent past? If so, why is the only person selling them identified only as "charlie" who also seems to have an endless supply of parsonii? Anyone know anything?
 

rshewfel

Member
Yes, exports opened up again. It is limited. I believe the quota was 250 for 2013. I am assuming he gets his parsonii from europe. Just like everyone else is. I have seen a few people on here that have purchased from him, myself included. I got a group of lateralis from him. They came in pretty good for wild caughts.
 

Dooley1

Avid Member
Charlie has been around selling chameleons for years. He has a table at the White Plains, NY Reptile Expo sometimes too.
 

spadefish

Member
Yes, exports opened up again. It is limited. I believe the quota was 250 for 2013. I am assuming he gets his parsonii from europe. Just like everyone else is. I have seen a few people on here that have purchased from him, myself included. I got a group of lateralis from him. They came in pretty good for wild caughts.
Do they need CITES documentation?
 

Motherlode Chameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
In a nut shell and to the best of my knowledge all of the species of Madagascar chameleons that are being imported into the USA require CITES documents. Madagascar and the USA has agreed to be apart of CITES recommended import standards and any species or group of specimens listed as acceptable for export to the USA has got to have CITES papers proving that they are approved for export. Meaning CITES papers for both Furcifer campani and Calumma parsonii into the USA.
 
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spadefish

Member
In a nut shell and to the best of my knowledge all of the species of Madagascar chameleons that are being imported into the USA require CITES documents. Madagascar has agreed to be apart of CITES recommended import standards and any species or group of specimens listed as acceptable for export to the USA has got to have CITES papers proving that they are approved for export. Meaning CITES papers for both Furcifer campani and Calumma parsonii into the USA.
That's what I thought. If they are coming from Europe, don't they need CITES documentation as well if the were exported from Madagascar to Europe?
 

Motherlode Chameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
That's what I thought. If they are coming from Europe, don't they need CITES documentation as well if the were exported from Madagascar to Europe?
Europe never recognized the CITES ban in 1995 meaning for non quota species going to Europe they are not going to have CITES paperwork. Further Madagascar did recognize the CITES ban during 1995 and the species not listed as quota species that are exported to Europe are more than likely smuggled to Europe. However I expect quota species most probably arrive in Europe with CITES documents. If chameleons were exported from Madagascar to Europe to the USA they would require a paper trail to document legal export from Madagascar to Europe to the USA as the USA did recognize CITES trade regulations of certain Madagascar chameleons, such as possibly Furcifer pardalis Nosy Faly and Mitsio locals.
 
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Chris Anderson

Dr. House of Chameleons
Staff member
Europe never recognized the CITES ban in 1995 meaning for non quota species going to Europe they are not going to have CITES paperwork. Further Madagascar did recognize the CITES ban during 1995 and the species not listed as quota species that are exported to Europe are more than likely smuggled to Europe. However I expect quota species most probably arrive in Europe with CITES documents. If chameleons were exported from Madagascar to Europe to the USA they would require a paper trail to document legal export from Madagascar to Europe to the USA as the USA did recognize CITES trade regulations of certain Madagascar chameleons, such as possibly Furcifer pardalis Nosy Faly and Mitsio locals.
Jeremy,

No, Europe did recognize the 1995 CITES recommendation to suspend import of these species from Madagascar, just as the US did. The issue is that there is no enforcement unless the animals are caught in the act of being smuggled as they can't prove they are illegal otherwise since people just claim they are progeny from stock legally imported prior to the ban in 1995 and the authorities would have to be able to prove otherwise. As a result, the market has continued to flourish fed off of laundered specimens. Similarly, they can't get CITES documents for most of those species in Europe in order to export to the US because to do so they typically need to trace the animals back to these legal imports themselves. It does not matter where the species are coming from or going to (C. calyptratus from NY to Tornoto or C. globifer from Germany to the US), if they are crossing an international boarder, they need CITES. It has nothing to do with the US recognizing the 1995 suspension or not, it is all because they are CITES listed species and there are no exceptions to that.

Chris
 

Motherlode Chameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
Jeremy,

No, Europe did recognize the 1995 CITES recommendation to suspend import of these species from Madagascar, just as the US did. The issue is that there is no enforcement unless the animals are caught in the act of being smuggled as they can't prove they are illegal otherwise since people just claim they are progeny from stock legally imported prior to the ban in 1995 and the authorities would have to be able to prove otherwise. As a result, the market has continued to flourish fed off of laundered specimens. Similarly, they can't get CITES documents for most of those species in Europe in order to export to the US because to do so they typically need to trace the animals back to these legal imports themselves. It does not matter where the species are coming from or going to (C. calyptratus from NY to Tornoto or C. globifer from Germany to the US), if they are crossing an international boarder, they need CITES. It has nothing to do with the US recognizing the 1995 suspension or not, it is all because they are CITES listed species and there are no exceptions to that.

Chris
Chris

Thanks for the clarification I was under the understanding that Europe and Asia never recognized the initial recommended Madagascar ban. I think I stated though that the USA is adhering to CITES guidelines meaning all trade of chameleons going to the USA requires CITES permits. Thanks for the clarification again though.

Jeremy A. Rich
 
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Charlie has been around selling chameleons for years. He has a table at the White Plains, NY Reptile Expo sometimes too.
Charlie is there every show. He usually has panthers and jacksons but sometimes with have carpets and pygmy species.

I saw the campani the last time he had a pair. They were in good shape. I may be tempted if he has them at the show in January.
 

Motherlode Chameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
Here's more information about the 1995 CITES trade ban. Plus an article by Ardi Abate about the whole exporting chameleons from Madagascar deal. It is good to say that now almost ten years after this article was written that both Calumma parsonii and globifer have had much greater success being bred in captivity. The enigma is being solved. Although Calumma globifer does require much more habitat conservation and restoration.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/index.php?page=conservation_mg
 
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Jay Sick

Established Member
Charlie is one of 3 people i will spend good money on because he gets nothing but the best my tamatve male my 1.2 sambavas and a array of others that are now stunning breeders came from him. im 32 I have seen charlie since i was 15 at shows.
 

Motherlode Chameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
Jeremy,

No, Europe did recognize the 1995 CITES recommendation to suspend import of these species from Madagascar, just as the US did. The issue is that there is no enforcement unless the animals are caught in the act of being smuggled as they can't prove they are illegal otherwise since people just claim they are progeny from stock legally imported prior to the ban in 1995 and the authorities would have to be able to prove otherwise. As a result, the market has continued to flourish fed off of laundered specimens. Similarly, they can't get CITES documents for most of those species in Europe in order to export to the US because to do so they typically need to trace the animals back to these legal imports themselves. It does not matter where the species are coming from or going to (C. calyptratus from NY to Tornoto or C. globifer from Germany to the US), if they are crossing an international boarder, they need CITES. It has nothing to do with the US recognizing the 1995 suspension or not, it is all because they are CITES listed species and there are no exceptions to that.

Chris
Chris

Sounds as thought the importation situation in Europe is quite the mess actually, a customs nightmare. Possibly these new quotas and micro chip technology could offer a solution and clean up much of these practices and create legitimate documented paper trails. In that regards progress would be made and make the situation more manageable especially for costumes officials.

Kind Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
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Motherlode Chameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
Everyone

I am for new Madagascar quotas of the less threatened species with an IUCN listing of Near Threatened or Least Concern. New quotas are long over due and should be done. It is similar to cleaning up a dirty dorm room or room for that mater it just should be done. Especially with academic consideration as seen with no species from the genus Calumma on the CITES Madagascar chameleons species export list for study abroad. That is an error that I think should be corrected. There are plenty of new species from the Calumma genus listed as possible new quota species that fit this protocol. I have got my digits crossed that some make it as new quota species.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
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