Fog?

[Lindasjackson]

This is what makes me wonder about fogging in captivity. There's no doubt it's a natural thing in the wild...but that doesn't mean it's the best thing or that it works in captivity because the parameters are different both in the way we provide it and in the way the cages are set up in the first place...and there are likely a few other contributing factors too.

i agree whole heartedly with that! Im a nurse and yes pseudomonus is a bad bacteria that causes pneumonia and lives in moist warm watery collection areas. I will say that I did try using an ultrasonic humidifier and a hose to give my Cham extra humidity but it didn’t work well and since reading this article that Kinyonga posted it made sense to me and I’m not doing it any more.

 

[summerseeking]

Why would dragons get RI's outside? Weren't the cages screen?

Dragons are low humidity animals from low moisture environments. Ideally humidity under 40…better under 30. Florida is high humidity, high moisture, and hot. The screened enclosures with high ventilation is why it works.

 

[CasqueAbove]

I’ve been thinking about this, trying to understand it. We mist and create humidity with temps in the 70’s but we shouldn’t fog with temps above 67? I understand they are different modes of creating moisture…I’m not sure how to word this because the subject is confusing…but either way the air is moist whether the temps or in the 70’s or below 67 and the Cham is breathing it. It doesn’t make sense to me 100%.

In short what we are trying to avoid is dumping fog into an enclosure that is at saturation. Humidity and temp are closely related.
We should really be referring to dew point. Cold air is dryer so we add fog to bring up the humidity. Warm air is saturated at a lower point. The other reason is simply because that is how it is in nature. Weather or not they are valid or not is different.

 

[kinyonga]

I think what we have to realize is that it's always going to be impossible or almost impossible to replicate nature exactly the way it is ...and do we even want to when some/many/most chameleons die younger in the wild than they do in captivity. While some natural things will work for some of us and can be created to some extent the by some of us, it won't work for others and won't be able to be duplicated for others either because of where we live for one thing. So the only thing we can do is try to do what helps them survive in a healthy manner for as long as we can in the area we live in even though we may have to work on it to get it as good as we can get it.

IMHO we might be best to start with the basics that we all find on forums like this or I other sites we often refer people to...and if keeping them with bio active substrates works for you, do it....if fogging works for you, do it...if misting more or less than someone else does works for you, do it. Etc.

 

[kinyonga]

Dragons are low humidity animals from low moisture environments. Ideally humidity under 40…better under 30. Florida is high humidity, high moisture, and hot. The screened enclosures with high ventilation is why it works.

I see....Didn't realize you were talking about doing it in Florida.

This is interesting....
https://beardeddragonsworld.com/humidity-for-bearded-dragons/

 

[summerseeking]

I see....Didn't realize you were talking about doing it in Florida.

Sorry, I may have forgot to add that most important to the story detail .

 

[Pearl Fields]

JMO incoming...

I think we overthink all of this... I have fogged, I've had solid side enclosures, I have not fogged with loads of misting and high or low humidity, I have free ranged with fog, I have free ranged without fog, but misted, I have had Panthers and Parsons(veiled too years ago)... you get the picture... I rarely clean anything unless it gets nasty or looks like it needs cleaning. I have never had a cham with an RI or any health problem. Definitely could be luck, but I also think there is a major thing at play with all of us... we don't stress our chameleons out! By stress, I mean true, harmful stress. Day in and day out stress. Which chams always come here with RI and whatever else? Terribly obvious poor husbandry chams... diet off, lighting off, no plants, sitting on the floor, whatever. When everything is right I don't think it matters much if you fog or mist. Personally, i am skeptical of the warm temp+humidity being all that bad. Many people, myself included, have chams that do well in our hot and humid summers. IMO ventilation is the important aspect. @Sonny13 honestly I would consider your 2 and 3 combined results normal care. I wonder if this is part of the reason why free ranged chameleons seem to do so well, or outdoor kept. Kind of like with fish tanks, more water volume, better water quality... usually. I also wonder if air purifiers would help at all...

@CasqueAbove you bring up a lot of good points, but I can't help but say, it's funny how you're skeptical of these scientists?, but buy into necas pretty fast. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of what necas taught us, but he's pretty unscientific at times as well... THE ANSWER IS THIS BECAUSE I SAID, I HAVE HAD CHAMELEONS FOR 3 MILLION YEARS.

Just to add to this... personally the different opinions of everybody stress me out lol, (on everything about chameleon care) but I do feel that though we often target specific conditions, chameleons can do well in many conditions. And I do not mean you can neglect the animal and it will be fine, as that is definitely not true. Even if it were, how could you be ok with keeping an animal in horrible conditions? That is not the point of this though. What I am saying is I feel we should not overstress on getting things right down to the degree or whatever, and that chameleons can be kept and do perfectly fine in different situations. For example, i do not fog mine, nor have I ever, because (before we moved into our current house) it simply would have most likely done more harm than good. Because it really would never have dried out where he was kept. And now in our current house, i do not fog because
A. He has been doing perfectly fine the way I have kept him, and I personally feel changing it up at this point would be unnecessary and potentially risky.
B. Temperatures don't always get so low where he is, even in the night.
C. It stays relatively humid here and I would be worried it would not dry out enough in the daytime with a fogger added.
D. This is kind of a selfish reason I suppose, but the other thing is that it would be more stress on me (I do NOT need more) and it would be expensive, as I would have to purchase the fogger and a dehumidifier to feel not at risk of an RI. (I only have a few hundred bucks and I feel they could be put to better use than a fogger in this situation.) Also, my chameleon's urates have always looked hydrated, and if they have started looking more orange, I pay attention. If it does not go back to mostly white/white I change the misting schedule accordingly.
But without a fogger my chameleon has done perfectly well so far, and the bottom line to take from this is that they can do well with different care, and that depending on the individual situation, some things that may work great for others, may not be the best choice for you. So yeah. I agree we tend to overthink things.

 

[CasqueAbove]

Just to add to this... personally the different opinions of everybody stress me out lol, (on everything about chameleon care) but I do feel that though we often target specific conditions, chameleons can do well in many conditions. And I do not mean you can neglect the animal and it will be fine, as that is definitely not true. Even if it were, how could you be ok with keeping an animal in horrible conditions? That is not the point of this though. What I am saying is I feel we should not overstress on getting things right down to the degree or whatever, and that chameleons can be kept and do perfectly fine in different situations. For example, i do not fog mine, nor have I ever, because (before we moved into our current house) it simply would have most likely done more harm than good. Because it really would never have dried out where he was kept. And now in our current house, i do not fog because
A. He has been doing perfectly fine the way I have kept him, and I personally feel changing it up at this point would be unnecessary and potentially risky.
B. Temperatures don't always get so low where he is, even in the night.
C. It stays relatively humid here and I would be worried it would not dry out enough in the daytime with a fogger added.
D. This is kind of a selfish reason I suppose, but the other thing is that it would be more stress on me (I do NOT need more) and it would be expensive, as I would have to purchase the fogger and a dehumidifier to feel not at risk of an RI. (I only have a few hundred bucks and I feel they could be put to better use than a fogger in this situation.) Also, my chameleon's urates have always looked hydrated, and if they have started looking more orange, I pay attention. If it does not go back to mostly white/white I change the misting schedule accordingly.
But without a fogger my chameleon has done perfectly well so far, and the bottom line to take from this is that they can do well with different care, and that depending on the individual situation, some things that may work great for others, may not be the best choice for you. So yeah. I agree we tend to overthink things.

You are correct there is more than one way. I fog, but I just told someone in Florida not to get a Fogger as it likely would not be needed in Florida. It is only a tool not a requirement. The only requirement is temp and humidity. No rules on how to get there.

 

[jamest0o0]

So I'd like to find an article on this, but I was listening to a guy(not chameleon related) that casually brought up that research shows animals that experience times of stressful situations and temperature fluctuations are stronger and healthier... like within reason, not just horrible conditions, but say a few cold days/few warmer, seeing rivals(have heard this from cham breeders), competition, etc. No idea how and if this would apply to reptiles, but I imagine in some way it could. Not saying any of this as fact, but something that's been on my mind.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Dragons are low humidity animals from low moisture environments. Ideally humidity under 40…better under 30. Florida is high humidity, high moisture, and hot. The screened enclosures with high ventilation is why it works.

If you peruse some maps of the range of Pogona vitticeps, and compare them to maps of Australia's climate zones, I think you'll find that where they actually live in the wild extends into some cold(er) areas, and into the temperate zones (higher humidities). (Yeah, it surprised me too.)

Source: https://beardeddragonsworld.com/bearded-dragons-in-the-wild/

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Australia


This doesn't necessarily mean you can take a bearded dragon from the center of the continent and plunk it down on the southern coast and expect it to adapt immediately, but I believe it does show that these animals have adapted as their territory has spread.

In somewhat similar fashion, wild populations of chameleons have adapted to life in Hawaii, California, Florida, Louisiana, and elsewhere in the world.

 

[Pearl Fields]

So I'd like to find an article on this, but I was listening to a guy(not chameleon related) that casually brought up that research shows animals that experience times of stressful situations and temperature fluctuations are stronger and healthier... like within reason, not just horrible conditions, but say a few cold days/few warmer, seeing rivals(have heard this from cham breeders), competition, etc. No idea how and if this would apply to reptiles, but I imagine in some way it could. Not saying any of this as fact, but something that's been on my mind.

I mean that would make sense, similar to how with a healthy amount of bacteria any (I think?) animals immune system would get stronger. Too much would kill/harm any animal though

 

[Lindasjackson]

If you peruse some maps of the range of Pogona vitticeps, and compare them to maps of Australia's climate zones, I think you'll find that where they actually live in the wild extends into some cold(er) areas, and into the temperate zones (higher humidities). (Yeah, it surprised me too.)

View attachment 306880
Source: https://beardeddragonsworld.com/bearded-dragons-in-the-wild/

View attachment 306881
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Australia


This doesn't necessarily mean you can take a bearded dragon from the center of the continent and plunk it down on the southern coast and expect it to adapt immediately, but I believe it does show that these animals have adapted as their territory has spread.

In somewhat similar fashion, wild populations of chameleons have adapted to life in Hawaii, California, Florida, Louisiana, and elsewhere in the world.

the Ones in California live in coastal areas where the humidity is higher. I used to live in San Diego back in the early to mid 90s and had some convos with Ardi Abate because I had my first jacksons then and she told me that’s where they were.

 

[Lindasjackson]

I mean that would make sense, similar to how with a healthy amount of bacteria any (I think?) animals immune system would get stronger. Too much would kill/harm any animal though

I agree.

 

[CasqueAbove]

So I'd like to find an article on this, but I was listening to a guy(not chameleon related) that casually brought up that research shows animals that experience times of stressful situations and temperature fluctuations are stronger and healthier... like within reason, not just horrible conditions, but say a few cold days/few warmer, seeing rivals(have heard this from cham breeders), competition, etc. No idea how and if this would apply to reptiles, but I imagine in some way it could. Not saying any of this as fact, but something that's been on my mind.

It is probably like farm kids. Lol

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

the Ones in California live in coastal areas where the humidity is higher. I used to live in San Diego back in the early to mid 90s and had some convos with Ardi Abate because I had my first jacksons then and she told me that’s where they were.

Yes, that supports their adaptability.

Jackson's chameleons are native to woodlands and forests at altitudes of 1,600 to 2,440 m (5,250 to 8,010 ft) in south-central Kenya and northern Tanzania.[4][11] In these areas, the rainfall is seasonal but exceeds 127 cm (50 in) per year. Day temperatures are typically 16–27 °C (61–81 °F), and night temperatures are typically 4–18 °C (39–64 °F).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson's_chameleon

 

[jamest0o0]

It is probably like farm kids. Lol

Lol maybe, or just that the genetic types that can handle farming gravitate towards that kind of labor.

 

[summerseeking]

the Ones in California live in coastal areas where the humidity is higher. I used to live in San Diego back in the early to mid 90s and had some convos with Ardi Abate because I had my first jacksons then and she told me that’s where they were.

Like wild dragons in California?!? Whoa!

 

[summerseeking]

If you peruse some maps of the range of Pogona vitticeps, and compare them to maps of Australia's climate zones, I think you'll find that where they actually live in the wild extends into some cold(er) areas, and into the temperate zones (higher humidities). (Yeah, it surprised me too.)

View attachment 306880
Source: https://beardeddragonsworld.com/bearded-dragons-in-the-wild/

View attachment 306881
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Australia


This doesn't necessarily mean you can take a bearded dragon from the center of the continent and plunk it down on the southern coast and expect it to adapt immediately, but I believe it does show that these animals have adapted as their territory has spread.

In somewhat similar fashion, wild populations of chameleons have adapted to life in Hawaii, California, Florida, Louisiana, and elsewhere in the world.

So cool thank you for this information! I been doing everything I can to keep the ambient humidity in my office low because my dragon is sharing that space with my boy panthers…and two aquariums…I know…not the best choice of roommates on my part lol. The dragon forums are like it needs to be under 30…and I’m like can 50 work?

 

[summerseeking]

For the folks using computer fans, how do you ensure the safety of your Cham’s tails and other limbs? I was thinking I would cover it with window screen. I think this could work.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

So cool thank you for this information! I been doing everything I can to keep the ambient humidity in my office low because my dragon is sharing that space with my boy panthers…and two aquariums…I know…not the best choice of roommates on my part lol. The dragon forums are like it needs to be under 30…and I’m like can 50 work?

Yes, 50% works for beardies. Mine fluctuates between 40%-60%.
You can verify this on https://www.beardeddragon.org/