Fog?

I think first we need to define “Fogging”. I believe it is often misunderstood. It is not filling a space with physical fog. I think many see it as more is better and this is wrong. It is about achieving technical fog. This means you may not see it or need a device. If the night drop and humidity rise are achieved that is the goal.
The concept of bacteria becomes significant only because of over fogging and creating a “pea soup” fog.
I do believe in fogging but in the right way. I do not fill my enclosure with fog.
Bacteria will be in the air in any humid stagnant environment.

The logic that you can’t clean is just wrong. You can, some are better, but saying something is bad because one company makes an inferior product makes no sense.

I have been sceptical of this site as they claim to be with a vet clinic but use vague terminology lik “many and a lot”. From a vet I want to see. Out of X cases 60% or higher used fogging Heavy, Light, none.
It is a vet so that information should be there.
Without the 60% we have nothing.
So just like so much it can be misused.

The bacteria thing is real but overblown. It is all part of keeping a balance.
 
kinyonga said:
While I'm sure fog in the wild helps with dehydration, I'm still concerned about bacteria being involved with fogging in captive conditions partly due to whether foggers are clean enough or not.
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They can be clean enough, it just needs to be part of the original plan. For tubes I use clear riser tube and PVC joints so it slips right apart.

But I also don’t think we always need a Fogger and sometimes it is the wrong choice. I would not use it with a glass enclosure or if I could achieve 75%+ and cool temps without.
 
oh man...I don't want to act rashly but that article was convincing. I immediately took my foggers offline and added 1 min mist cycles every 2 to 3 hours to help with keeping my humidity up throughout the night. The fogger is amazing for this, but not at the risk of their little lungs. Thank you for the share, I'm gonna research tomorrow when I'm less sleepy lol. One of my water pumps vibrates a fair amount, it's housed in the cabinet under the enclosure, do you think that will break their sleep?
 
kinyonga said:
@summerseeking how clean are the tubes in your misting system?
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One system is brand new, has been running for a week, I cleaned tubes before setup. The other has been up for two months. There's no clear way to know for sure. It's not a sterile environment so bacteria is living in the air, on the surfaces, etc...but if the fogger is aiding in their transport, def don't want that.

I've been on the fence with my fogger anyway. I read a thread that said not to run it if your temps are over 67F. One of my enclosures never gets that low so I haven't run it in there at all. The other hovers between 69 and 65...I came on here to do some digging around that because I had never read that before and I've only seen it once...Then I found your post 😂
 
One reason I post about fogging is because it may be perfectly normal in the chameleon's real world (as are many other things) but the way we try to accomplish the same thing in captivity may not be as good for the chameleon and we may have to find other solutions.

I'm not saying to stop misting or to stop fogging but to take into consideration that you need to be careful about it.
 
I did reread and feel the same. Lots of pre assumption. Though they acknowledge improper husbandry they blame it on the fog, not the combination.

They sputter technical terms but if you pull the pertinent parts out all we have is that many respiratory problems involve poor husbandry and many of those used fogging.
They speak of bacteria, but this is not that simple. Bacteria is a risk and a benefit. They and us are exposed daily. It is only when we are in a weakened state that we become ill. It is the same with them. Yes cleaning is part of it, but since when do we ignore proper care for ease of cleaning?

They don’t convince either way. We can’t assume all fogging is done the same. It is like saying I have heat on him. Well 80 is good but 110 is a problem.

It is also not a pure “this is how to hydrate “. It is only a part. It is the night drop and humidity that is key. A Fogger is not always the best way. The concept is new and still applied as all or none when it is only a tool in our toolbox. Our target is the same but we will use different tools to get thre.
 
kinyonga said:
One reason I post about fogging is because it may be perfectly normal in the chameleon's real world (as are many other things) but the way we try to accomplish the same thing in captivity may not be as good for the chameleon and we may have to find other solutions.
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Yes, this makes perfect sense. Our attempts to mimic nature will rarely be parallel...and at times cause more problems than they fix. I'm a solution finder by nature (and training as a designer lol) I'm always open to questioning where we are and where we should be. I'm been considering getting a UV water sanitizer and wind, but then I wondered will I compromise their immune system by killing off the bacteria. Who knows lol. Ohhhh the things the paranoia/fear of killing these guys will make us do lol
 
summerseeking said:
Yes, this makes perfect sense. Our attempts to mimic nature will rarely be parallel...and at times cause more problems than they fix. I'm a solution finder by nature (and training as a designer lol) I'm always open to questioning where we are and where we should be. I'm been considering getting a UV water sanitizer and wind, but then I wondered will I compromise their immune system by killing off the bacteria. Who knows lol. Ohhhh the things the paranoia/fear of killing these guys will make us do lol
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One of our biggest gaps is wind. We use screen, but that is nothing compared to a breezy night. This is one of the missing pieces. The dreaded high humidity and warmer temp are an issue across the hobby.
I believe this is something ignored. I always mention I use fogging but I always forget the part where I run a large fan and there is noticeable air flow. I think it is overlooked in husbandry too often.
 
CasqueAbove said:
One of our biggest gaps is wind. We use screen, but that is nothing compared to a breezy night. This is one of the missing pieces. The dreaded high humidity and warmer temp are an issue across the hobby.
I believe this is something ignored. I always mention I use fogging but I always forget the part where I run a large fan and there is noticeable air flow. I think it is overlooked in husbandry too often.
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So true! I run a large fan as well. Mainly to help get the temps down at night in my hotter reptile/fish/my office room. My other enclosure is in a room with windows in the perfect spots to send a nice breeze through. I figured the flow would help prevent stagnant air.
 
summerseeking said:
So true! I run a large fan as well. Mainly to help get the temps down at night in my hotter reptile/fish/my office room. My other enclosure is in a room with windows in the perfect spots to send a nice breeze through. I figured the flow would help prevent stagnant air.
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When you think about it only the animals that die without it get much air movement at all. Increased cross flow is something I have been incorporating more and more with other animals I keep. It can get tricky to balance it all.
 
CasqueAbove said:
One of our biggest gaps is wind. We use screen, but that is nothing compared to a breezy night. This is one of the missing pieces. The dreaded high humidity and warmer temp are an issue across the hobby.
I believe this is something ignored. I always mention I use fogging but I always forget the part where I run a large fan and there is noticeable air flow. I think it is overlooked in husbandry too often.
Click to expand...
Talking about wind and air movement, it has been tested with T. Hoehnelii


PetNcs said:
i would have no concern in the case of pollen
It is definitely digested only partly and more important: this is what they naturally ingest!
I have ao far had only evideltly positive experience with it and no single negative case.
We do not know HOW exactly it wirks, true, but THAT it works positively, we are absokute sure nowadays
We will never have full understanding even in what positive extent is for us water use
Fum but this is not why we refuse to drink it until we know ALL, right? LOL

if rhe temps are low, I would nit set the room hogjer, instead, I would allow more basking ipportunities and, J would NOT allow them to bask all day. The area is clouded all tear around and there is no singke fully sunny day. So, intermittent basking on of is the way I would do...
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i have done very rigirous experiments with other montanes: T. hoehnelii
At identical conditions, we had three control groupsnof babies from same clutch:

1. “Normal” husbandry with right temps and night fog and feeding standard way with calcium, little MVT, and UV
2. 1. With pollen
3. 1. With simullated wind (ventillator intermittently)
4. 2 and 3 combined

best results: 4
Second: 2
Third: 3
Last: 1.

More than halfnof the babies in group 1 died within first theee months, due to RI, they developped gular oedema, mouthrot

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/oops-kinyongia-boehmei.173893/page-3. Post #53
 
CasqueAbove said:
When you think about it only the animals that die without it get much air movement at all. Increased cross flow is something I have been incorporating more and more with other animals I keep. It can get tricky to balance it all.
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For my enclosure I got 24/7 two pc fans running, just above bottom level, blowing air inside the enclosure. Especially with the fogging, I don’t want any stagnant air build-up.
 
JMO incoming...

I think we overthink all of this... I have fogged, I've had solid side enclosures, I have not fogged with loads of misting and high or low humidity, I have free ranged with fog, I have free ranged without fog, but misted, I have had Panthers and Parsons(veiled too years ago)... you get the picture... I rarely clean anything unless it gets nasty or looks like it needs cleaning. I have never had a cham with an RI or any health problem. Definitely could be luck, but I also think there is a major thing at play with all of us... we don't stress our chameleons out! By stress, I mean true, harmful stress. Day in and day out stress. Which chams always come here with RI and whatever else? Terribly obvious poor husbandry chams... diet off, lighting off, no plants, sitting on the floor, whatever. When everything is right I don't think it matters much if you fog or mist. Personally, i am skeptical of the warm temp+humidity being all that bad. Many people, myself included, have chams that do well in our hot and humid summers. IMO ventilation is the important aspect. @Sonny13 honestly I would consider your 2 and 3 combined results normal care. I wonder if this is part of the reason why free ranged chameleons seem to do so well, or outdoor kept. Kind of like with fish tanks, more water volume, better water quality... usually. I also wonder if air purifiers would help at all...

@CasqueAbove you bring up a lot of good points, but I can't help but say, it's funny how you're skeptical of these scientists?, but buy into necas pretty fast. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of what necas taught us, but he's pretty unscientific at times as well... THE ANSWER IS THIS BECAUSE I SAID, I HAVE HAD CHAMELEONS FOR 3 MILLION YEARS.
 
I will end my thoughts ATM with... if I had my perfect set up the way I want, I'd ditch fogging and mist heavier, especially at lights out to keep night humidity a bit higher. I feel there's just less to worry about this way and it is tried and true. Does help that my current cham species comes from a real rainforest, but even with Panthers/veileds, they seem to do well with misting. Also, I believe necas said humidity and fog aren't the same and we need to fog to replicate the natural hydration. Not saying he's right or wrong, but I remember that somewhere. Either way, my chams have done fine with lots of misting and higher night humidity and that's how I'd do it if I had the choice. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
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