Eye Issue/Temp Problem
- Thread starter ajacobson
- Start date
Chris Jury
New Member
He is looking immensely better than in the first photo. The most serious issue here is/was severe dehydration I think. As mentioned above, chameleons rarely show interest in food when dehydrated. I would continue using showers and long misting with lukewarm water to get him well hydrated as quickly as possible. Showers of 30+ min can be very useful. Water him until he stops drinking, plus a little, and do so frequently. I'd also see about raising the ambient humidity. Partially wrapping the cage in clear plastic can help maintain humidity. An ultrasonic humidifier is also excellent for increasing humidity. Getting him hydrated is the first and biggest issue to correct, but as I said, he is looking much better and is moving in the right direction.
The second major issue is the relatively cool temperatures he has, and specifically, low basking temperatures. An important but frequently misunderstood point is the difference between ambient and 'basking' temperatures, and how critical it is to provide a steep tempearture gradient for behavioral thermoregulators. For F. pardalis, and pretty much any chameleon that shows an inclination to basking, I'd provide basking temps of at least 90 F, and ideally 95-105 F coupled with ambient temps that drop into the 70's F in the coolest part of the enclosure. Please understand, the temps of 95-105 F (at least 90 F) are this high at the basking site only and drop through the 80's and into the 70's F far from the basking site.
For the life of me I can't understand it, but I often see very low basking temps advocated (e.g., 80 F) in captivity. Suffice to say, this would be very unnatural for tropical species like F. pardalis. For example, I got home today around 5:30 pm or so, about an hour before sunset (here in Hawaii). I have an indoor-outdoor thermometer with the indoor part positioned in shade, to give me ambient air temps, and the outdoor part positioned in full sun. Because of the radiant heating of the sun, the white probe registers a temp much higher than ambient when it's sunny, and equal to ambient when it's very overcast. Anyway, today was a nice sunny day. The ambient temp when I got home was 78 F, and the temp measured by the probe in the sun was 100 F. These are effectively wintertime temps where F. pardalis live, with summertime being 5-10 F warmer. Providing basking temps lower than 90 F is unnatural for this, and most any basking, tropical animal. This ends up being very important because, when given the chance to behaviorally thermoregulate, F. pardalis maintain their body tempearture in the mid to upper 80's F (like many other chameleons). They can certainly tolerate lower temps for a while, but long-term suboptimal temps are problematic for any organism.
I'd get the animal well hydrated as quickly as possible by watering and increasing humidity, and provide higher basking temps (90+ F), to allow him to behaviorally thermoregulate properly, and then I'd expect he'll start taking food again.
cj
Chris Jury
New Member
Is it feasible to raise the basking branch slightly and bump that basking temp up maybe 10-15 F?
ajacobson
New Member
Update!
So, I'm not sure which of the million things it was that I tried, but William is now back to normal. He had really started to worry me with not eating, keeping his eyes closed and beginning to look very dehydrated. I started giving him very long warm showers, my vet washed his eyes and we used eye drops, we did a dose of Vit. A, and then I started using Reptaid. During that time I was really worried that he hadn't been eating. I contacted Chad (Tiki Tiki Reptiles) for advice and he gave me some flies to try to jump start William's appetite, and they worked!
Now, has his eyes open and is alert all day, he is eating healthily, and his feces and urates look normal. Well, the last one was gigantic, I can't resist posting the pic of it! I'm also posting a video of him eating his favorite treat this morning. Big thanks to all who've helped, especially Chad!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ior9UcDAVrY
So, I'm not sure which of the million things it was that I tried, but William is now back to normal. He had really started to worry me with not eating, keeping his eyes closed and beginning to look very dehydrated. I started giving him very long warm showers, my vet washed his eyes and we used eye drops, we did a dose of Vit. A, and then I started using Reptaid. During that time I was really worried that he hadn't been eating. I contacted Chad (Tiki Tiki Reptiles) for advice and he gave me some flies to try to jump start William's appetite, and they worked!
Now, has his eyes open and is alert all day, he is eating healthily, and his feces and urates look normal. Well, the last one was gigantic, I can't resist posting the pic of it! I'm also posting a video of him eating his favorite treat this morning. Big thanks to all who've helped, especially Chad!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ior9UcDAVrY
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Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Just saw your thread. Vitamin A was as likely the culprit as anything, and very possibly the root issue. Glad to see he got some. As much as it has been discussed in forum in the past, I am surprised it was not raised as an issue in the beginning.
ajacobson
New Member
I'm really unsure of the Vit A. He seemed to really go downhill the week of the Vit. A. That's when he got really inactive, and stopped drinking and his eye sunk in. Really, he started going back up when I started Reptaid and got him to eat the flies. That and the really long showers.
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
I don't know that it was Vit A either. It is a very likely culprit though. When Vitamin A eye issues are caught early, they can be cleared in 3-4 days. When let go longer, they can take 10-20 days to improve.
A proper remedial dose, or doses, will not harm the animal if not needed. If needed, then it does its job providing the animal is not too far gone.
Something "cured" your animal though, and I doubt it was husbandry changes. Whether the Reptaid, or antibiotics in the eye, or Vitamin A, etc., I do not know. Something specific fixed him.
Ace
Avid Member
what is your position about some chameleons, more so in panthers about converting beta carotene into Vit.A?
and do you feel that some panthers can convert beta carotene into vitA, while for some reason some panthers cannot? just curious
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Ace
Avid Member
oh okay thank you...
i was curious because my panther seems to have one eye that is a little swollen area below the eye on the turret
and then his tongue shooting distance has decreased as well as his appetite, drinks fine and if he eats, later on his poop and urates are normal
a forum member reccommended me using small amounts (1-2 drops) of vit A capsules on a feeder or two, to see any change, i havent done so yet but was curious.
thank you again
ajacobson
New Member
It sure would be nice to know WHICH thing fixed him! That would probably be a great help.
I guess I can just list everything I did and people can try them all in similar cases.But like you said, the eye thing had been going on for a while, so it could have been the Vit. A just starting to work now....it's worth a shot if you're in the same position!
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
I have posted about Vitamin A a few places long-buried here in CF. There is no doubt that captive panthers are very susceptable to Vitamin A deficiencies. It is also pretty easily administered without risking harm to the chameleon, so long as the chameleon only gets a smear at a time, that being less than 1/10th of a drop on foor, or directly in teh mouth, at a concentration of 5000-15000 iu's per capsule (each capsule holds about 3 drops). About 5 doses, one per day, will take care of a deficiency in a larger cham.
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
What happens with such as a vitamin A deficiency, or other maladies, such as a respiratory or upper esophageal infection, is that the condition will begin to debilitate the animal. Then other failures will take hold. Dehydration due to lack of movement and general health decay. Secondary infections. Possible stomach and bowel conditions. Organ failure. Whatever the initial condition, if you do not catch it soon enough, you may end up with a host of additional problems.
As this animal had been in the owner's care for some time, it is doubtful that it just decided to stop drinking. That dehydration became an issue after it started to have sunken and closed eyes would be highly likely.
When otherwise good husbandry has been evident, it is our opinion that panthers fail for 3 primary reasons:
1) Females bred that were not properly prepared with vitamins, minerals, and nutrition;
2) Vitamin A deficiencies, usually apparent with an irritation in one eye. Then both.
3) Upper esophageal infections, caused by septic bugs, such as poorly maintained crickets. This causes a mucous build-up in the mouth where before it had been clean.
I don't have time for discussion or debate, but want to add to my last point. I have read where many believe that respiratory infections are common in panthers, and contagious. I believe them not common. I believe them completely non-contagious (note .... animals kept in a too wet environment will be more susceptable to respiratory issues, but its the wet that enables it). If you house a panther with a respiratory issue in a cage with one without, and the temps and husbandry is good, its not going to jump animals.
Here is what happens. Your crickets are not clean, with fresh water every 48 hours. Or your cage has pooled water, as in a dish under a plant. It fouls easily, and becomes septic in less than 96 hours. Crickets drink the muck, now full of bacteria, which they can handle. When chomped in the chameleon's mouth, the bacteria will overwhelm the chameleon's mouth, causing heavy mucous in 7-14 days. Its excessive bacteria. It will spread down the throat. It will get into the lungs. Now you have a respiratory infection, but it did not start that way. It started as an upper esophageal infection. If its in your cricket colony, or you are buying store bought crickets, etc, then it will seem that you have a contagious issue, and many of your chameleons will develop it. But it is not being spread as a contagion. Your bugs are as a poison.
Note: cricets from stores, or cricket breeders, usually arrive contaminated. They are usually kept with a water supply that is changed every 7-10 days. Crickets can handle that. Your chameleon cannot. Keep crickets in clean conditions for two days after purchase. Then they are OK to use.
You can eliminate the contamination source, and treat the chameleon with the proper antibiotics.
ajacobson
New Member
He did have the eye problem. One eye was funky, then he went to shut both. He normally was a great drinker, until this eye problem. When you told me that after a while it could take longer for the Vit. A to work, then it really seemed likely that it was the "cure".
Definitely something to watch for with panthers, I've seen it a lot around the forums. Because my guy was so small, the vet had to very, very carefully dose him too.
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
I am glad the vet had the notion to cover with the vitamin A. I have probably described the sequence of symptoms to several hundred panther keepers over the years who were at some stage of eye issues, and it was a near perfect, if not perfect, reverse match of events.
Its an amazingly prevelent issue. Thanks for the feedback.
ajacobson
New Member
The vet DIDN'T! LOL! I actually read about it, and told her my opinion about the Vit A., then she did it. She actually tried to keep treating the eyes in various ways.
