Emergency! Cham dieing, what do I do?!

[Elizadolots]

How low of a watt can I go while still keeping it warm? I had a blue day light, it was much cooler but someone said that it might hurt his eyes, and maybe that would cause squinting but I changed it last week and hes only gotten worse. If the room stays around 70s can I take the basking light out completley for a day to see if thats bothering him? The dome sits on top of the cage but the bulb is about 3 inches above the mesh. He hasnt done it latley but when he first started squinting he was climb circles around the light.

Only your thermometer can tell you how low a watt bulb you can use. Just keep in mind that you only want it to be around 80 degrees in the TOP 8 inches or so of the enclosure. It should fall off to "normal room temperature" at the bottom of the enclosure.

I sounds like it is possible he got a burn. He doesn't have to have come in contact with the bulb (though sometimes the hood is hot to the touch, you want to check that). Think of it like a sunburn...you didn't touch the sun and it felt really good for awhile when you were getting the burn.

It's possible that the blue bulb did do some damage. The fact that it seems worse now doesn't mean it wasn't caused by something earlier. Again, think the sunburn analogy: they are always much, much worse after you've gotten out of the sun.

 

[Meghan]

Humidity is at 75%ish before I sprayed, temp under light is around 87F and the rest of the cage is low 70s. Hes still grabbing pretty strongly but he kinda flops around and looks very sleepy. He wont open his mouth for pedylite, and Im afraid to force it open. Not sure what else to do? I think its now to late to save him at this point

 

[Meghan]

Alright well, he was hanging by one foot upside down when I came home, wouldnt move very much and barley opened his eyes, I know he isnt going to make it past tonight. I layed him down in the pothos pot so he wouldnt fall when he died. Still dont know what could have caused such a sudden death, sadly he was a present for my boyfriend and it sounds like we will not be getting another, to hard of a loss.

 

[Elizadolots]

Can you get the temperature down? If it were my animal, I would a) cool that enclosure down and b) keep a mist going on him for 10 or 15 minutes. Put him on a plant in the bathtub if you have to and keep spraying him.

 

[Meghan]

Ive lowered the temp, I think hes probably dead but the temp is cooler at the bottom the tank, Ill spay him again but I think its to late. He stopped moving last night, occasionally grabbed my finger but thats it

 

[Meghan]

So it is indeed too late. So other than temp, which I think is fixed, what in the future if I ever do get another should I keep a watch on? I still dont really know what killed him

 

[jannb]

I am so very sorry to hear about your loss.

 

[Elizadolots]

I'm very sorry.

My first suggestion is to read up on the specific type of chameleon you are getting before you get it. There are significant differences.

My second suggestion is not to beat yourself up over this. I'm sure many if not most of the people here found this board because they had a chameleon, didn't know the proper care, and the chameleon was ill. That's how I got here too.

 

[chamlover]

I am so sorry to hear of his passing. Please do not beat yourself.up . We have all had issues at one time or another. Please excuse me if I have missed something, I am on my tiny tiny phone. But 1 thing I didn't see is that he was ever treated.for parasites. Most jacksons ate w/c and have to be checked for them.. And all of my newly acquired. Chams get 3 showers a week until I am sure they are.completely re hydrated.

 

[Meghan]

I unfortunately do not have a reptile vet here, Im on a island and cant take the cham on a plane to a vet without a vets approval I was under the impression that this was a captive born cham, I got him when he was very wee. If I do try again I will be buying a misting system so theres no mistakes on that. The heat did get a little much that last week after he got sick, which Im sure didnt help, I just feel it wasnt that hot in our old house, we did not use a heater and with his basking light it barely got to 80 in his tank, so he was probably too cold. I dont know, I just cant see anything that was catastrophically bad, nothing that would kill him so quickly without being obviously wrong, not that I dont think it was my fault, its life was my responsibility, I just wished there were definite answers. Thank you everyone for your knowledge, hopefully I wont need to call on you again

 

[Carlton]

I unfortunately do not have a reptile vet here, Im on a island and cant take the cham on a plane to a vet without a vets approval I was under the impression that this was a captive born cham, I got him when he was very wee. If I do try again I will be buying a misting system so theres no mistakes on that. The heat did get a little much that last week after he got sick, which Im sure didnt help, I just feel it wasnt that hot in our old house, we did not use a heater and with his basking light it barely got to 80 in his tank, so he was probably too cold. I dont know, I just cant see anything that was catastrophically bad, nothing that would kill him so quickly without being obviously wrong, not that I dont think it was my fault, its life was my responsibility, I just wished there were definite answers. Thank you everyone for your knowledge, hopefully I wont need to call on you again

Sorry about the news Meghan!

FWIW, read back through the beginning posts of the thread and I think you'll see there were several things going wrong...nutritional problems, he got too warm and probably dehydrated, and for a young montane cham that can be fatal. With these things in mind, I doubt it would matter a lot whether he was captive or wildcaught. We'll never know exactly unless there was a full necropsy however.

 

[DanSB]

Thank you everyone for your knowledge, hopefully I wont need to call on you again

I think I can speak for most when I say that we hope to see you here still hopefully with pictures of your next.

You have learned so much and invested so much time and emotion it would be a travesty to not carry on and get another.

Keeping exotic animals is a learning curve, and sadly that learning curve often results in tragedy, but it is my firm opinion that the real tragedy is surrender. So much is offered to enrich our lives and the lives of those around us with what we learn of life and nature from our little friends.

I'm sorry for your loss and hope to see you on the boards in the future!

 

[Elizadolots]

Dan is absolutely right. You should be a presence on this board. Trust me, I learn things here every day and sometimes I get to help people by sharing what I've learned.

Another thing I'm going to suggest: for your next chameleon, you might want to consider a veiled or a panther. Both are a bit hardier, both are more readily available as "captive bred" and, most importantly--for you--both require less humidity and higher temperatures.

Because you live in a place where you have to insulate yourself from the outside environment, your environment is drier and warmer than what these little "mountain" chameleons (smart people here call them montane's) need. Veileds and Panthers will require less adjustment on your part because they like it warmer, they like it drier.

 

[Meghan]

Silly reason, but the cham was a Christmas present and I chose it based on size and because my bf liked the look. Not to say I didnt fully research them, or felt like I had, but I thought they were pretty hardy. Panthers seem like they may get too big, and seem to be mean? or less friendly? We didnt hold our cham, so I guess thats not really a big issue. Panthers here are like $250 to $300 to special order one, our jacksons was only $75, and I felt the money was better spent on his enclosure than on the cham itself. The veileds are pretty cute but I was afraid if I ended up getting a female that it would get egg bound, and I had at the time wanted to keep my options open for a male and female, separated of course. I know they have live birth but can a jacksons still get egg bound? Dumb question Im sure. If we try again I will be building a 32"X30"X16" screen cage with misting and a lot more plants, Im just having a really hard time with a good drainage system. PS I really like the look of four horned chameleons, not sure if they have another name or how easy they are but so interesting!

 

[Elizadolots]

Well, those are choices you make. The smaller chameleons do seem to be "wetter/cooler" chameleons which makes husbandry more challenging for you. Wild Caught chameleons tend to be less expensive initially, but are more likely to arrive with parasites which can be costly or even deadly.

I would suggest trying again and don't be afraid of a Jacksons. (I do not believe there are any egg binding issues with Jacksons and I completely understand your reluctance to deal with eggs) You know what your target temps and humidity are now so that's not as big an issue. If you can make an arrangement with the vet to bring him in on arrival to get a basic exam and a check for parasites, that would be a good thing. Another thing you might check into is whether you can arrange to send him samples by mail. Then he'd be able to write the order to bring the chameleon on the plane if he knew there was a parasite problem.

If you're building your own cage, you should be able to incorporate the drainage into your design. For example, leave an opening in the bottom, cover that with mesh, build a table with a larger opening, put the cage on the table, put a bucket under the opening....drainage. You might want to poke around the Enclosures forum for ideas.

 

[Carlton]

Panthers seem like they may get too big, and seem to be mean? or less friendly? We didnt hold our cham, so I guess thats not really a big issue. Panthers here are like $250 to $300 to special order one, our jacksons was only $75, and I felt the money was better spent on his enclosure than on the cham itself. The veileds are pretty cute but I was afraid if I ended up getting a female that it would get egg bound, and I had at the time wanted to keep my options open for a male and female, separated of course. I know they have live birth but can a jacksons still get egg bound? Dumb question Im sure. If we try again I will be building a 32"X30"X16" screen cage with misting and a lot more plants, Im just having a really hard time with a good drainage system. PS I really like the look of four horned chameleons, not sure if they have another name or how easy they are but so interesting!

Coming from the same sort of isolated location you do, I can appreciate what your limitations will be, so here are some thoughts FWIW (and I also like horns!):

Any cham you get will occasionally need vet care, even if it is just a fecal analysis or a prescription for an antibiotic to treat an infection. Find out what herp-savvy vet support you have and what it will take to get your cham to it. Just know what you'll need to prepare for and have some basic meds on hand.

Your cham will basically live indoors for its whole life, so the climate in your house has got to be dealt with. It will be harder to provide the humidity a montane species will need, especially in winter. To keep my K. fischeri even close to hydrated it took an automated misting system, an ultrasonic humidifier, and careful hand spraying. Plus there's the care of large potted live plants to consider. Montane species will want even more dense cage plants than others. Proper lighting will be key as you can't count on much if any outdoor basking even in summer. Plan to stock up on UV lighting in advance and don't expect the closest pet store to carry what you want. My nearest city is Juneau and there's one small pet supply I use. They do try, and carry a lot, but chances are they won't happen to have the one thing I need.

A variety of properly sized feeder insects will be a challenge unless you rear them yourself. We are talking crix, roaches, superworms, flies, silkworms, waxworms, hornworms or any other type you can think of. All of them will either need to be flown in or shipped through the mail year round. Expensive and takes planning. You'll lose some in transit too. You will need to order and ship their gutloads, any supplement dusts, and other fresh foods too.

Be ready for a power failure...what sort of heat or electric can you get if you end up "off the grid" for a few days. If you have a wood stove as back up heat like I do, that will just suck the moisture out of the air even faster.

I'm not trying to discourage you from ever keeping a cham, just pointing out the realities that you ran in to with your first cham and what you will still face with another.

About the more commonly kept species:

Veileds are not always mean. My first cham was a male veiled and he was fine. Many here have perfectly nice ones. Jax and other montanes are not always docile. They may not try to bite you but they do show their stress in other ways such as extreme shyness. I've had spooky nippy jax, stressy fischeri, and a very surly deremensis. Panthers may be expensive but there are also many high quality, healthy captive bred lines available. Both veiled and panther chams are a bit more forgiving of drier indoor situations under lighting. Jax and other montane species are more sensitive to diet mistakes and over supplementation. They can have trouble with developing ova even though they don't go through egg laying. If there are nutritional problems going on they can still get into trouble expelling unfertilized or undeveloped ova and can die. Jax are prone to temporal gland infections (the little gland at the corners of their mouth) and they can be tough to treat without direct access to a vet. Those four horned (quadricornis) chams are even more "montane" in their needs than jax. We know a lot less about their nutritional needs and very few if any available will be captive bred.

 

[Meghan]

I was concerned with mean/mad panthers, veileds seem pretty pleasant. I cant see spending $300 on something that I may or may not kill within a year, Im sure the cham is worth it, I just want to have a higher success rate before I try that. Im back to veiled or jacksons, Im leaning towards a veiled just to see if its a better fit for me. Would it be plausible to have a screen cage, but the front doors be plexiglass and the back have a background attached? I was looking at coconut husk mats or rolls but it sounds pretty moldy, cheap for a reason I suppose. The foam backgrounds that are sold are to small, and the corkbark was heavy, hard to cut, and impossible to attach to anything. Maybe screen sides and top and plexiglass back and doors?

 

[Murrdox]

Meghan, I went through the same sort of thing you did when I first got into chameleons. I started with a Jackson, then moved onto a Veiled, and then I got into Panthers. I have a new baby Panther now, who is just learning how to hand-feed and it's so cute!

ANYWAYS this is just my personal opinion, but I would advise against a Veiled. I can tell you that as a new chameleon owner, and even though he was my second chameleon, I made the most husbandry mistakes with the Veiled, especially since caring for it is so much different than a Jacksons.

I can also sympathize with the anxiety over buying a Panther. They're more expensive than a Jackson or a Veiled. When I bought my first Nosy Be I was afraid I'd kill the poor little guy. $300 is a lot to spend on a chameleon that only lives for a few months!

BUT, I'm happy to say my first Panther was a resounding success, I had him from when he was only 3 months old to 4 years old. Yes, he should have lived longer, and I really wish I knew how he got sick in the end, but it was worth it. Panthers are also really gentle creatures for the most part. They're very well tempered. I hand-fed mine all the time, he was great.

So I'd recommend another Jacksons or a Panther to you. No matter what, I'm glad you're sticking with it. ALL of us have made husbandry mistakes and lost chameleons and we all have mistakes that we feel guilty about. We've all been there.

 

[Carlton]

Im leaning towards a veiled just to see if its a better fit for me. Would it be plausible to have a screen cage, but the front doors be plexiglass and the back have a background attached? I was looking at coconut husk mats or rolls but it sounds pretty moldy, cheap for a reason I suppose. The foam backgrounds that are sold are to small, and the corkbark was heavy, hard to cut, and impossible to attach to anything. Maybe screen sides and top and plexiglass back and doors?

Yes, a "hybrid" cage will work and you can decide just how much you want to enclose. I built a screen cage and had some plexiglass panels cut for each side, front and back at a local hardware store. Then just attached the panels using storm window toggles or screws around the edges. It was great, because I could fine tune the cage ventilation by season whenever I needed to.

Another even simpler (and cheaper) option is to buy or build a screen cage and get some heavy duty clear vinyl shower curtains to hang on the sides. Attach them by the grommets across the top of the cage with cable ties. Simple. You can trim them to fit, take them off or on as needed for humidity, and they are a little less likely to create reflections that stress out some chams. Not all chams react to their reflections, but some definitely do.

I've never used any sort of background on a cham cage...it does make the cage darker and the chams won't really care about or benefit from the solid surface. It isn't as if you need to mount bromiliads or other terrarium epiphytes on it. Just one more thing to clean and monitor for mold.

 

[Meghan]

My cham used the background to climb on, It was really more for me, I just didnt like the look of a screen in the back, it felt so exposed. The plexi glass is also for me, although I clearly need help with humidity, Id like to see clearly through to the cham but I dont want him stressed by himself, I wonder if there is a coating or material that doesnt reflect back. I work in an optical department and we deal with a coating like that but I dont think its a large scale thing I can spray on a panel haha. I was actually looking at the acrylic sheet that comes in the front of large picture frames, very cheap, but probably even more reflective.