Egg count for female ambilobe

NAUSEATE

Member
Hello everyone,
My female ambilobe was mated with my male a while back. Last night I saw the female digging. She had a lay bin but She dug a hole and layed inside of the potted hibiscus plant instead. I was able to retrieve 14 eggs that were placed on moist perlite. I have ordered vermiculite as my garden store didnt have any in stock. My questions are the following:

1) should I be lookin for more eggs in the other pots or does 14 sound like all she might have been carrying? She doesnt look to have anymore in her as she is now back to being thin.

2) should I transfer the eggs to moist vermiculite when it arrives on friday? Or just leave them alone on the perlite?

3) do the eggs look viable?


Thank you to everyone in advanced
 

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kinyonga

Chameleon Queen
You said..."My female ambilobe was mated with my male a while back. Last night I saw the female digging. She had a lay bin but She dug a hole and layed inside of the potted hibiscus plant instead"...what substrate were you using in the laybin? How big/deep was the bin?

You said..."I was able to retrieve 14 eggs that were placed on moist perlite"...they look fertile.

You said..."1) should I be lookin for more eggs in the other pots or does 14 sound like all she might have been carrying? She doesnt look to have anymore in her as she is now back to being thin"...can you post a photo of her from just before she laid the eggs please? 14 could be all she has depending on the temperature your basking area was at and on how much you fed her.

You said..."2) should I transfer the eggs to moist vermiculite when it arrives on friday? Or just leave them alone on the perlite?"...many people use perlite and many use vermiculite. Both work as long as they are set up right. I'd lean on the side of not moving them.
 

NAUSEATE

Member
You said..."My female ambilobe was mated with my male a while back. Last night I saw the female digging. She had a lay bin but She dug a hole and layed inside of the potted hibiscus plant instead"...what substrate were you using in the laybin? How big/deep was the bin?

You said..."I was able to retrieve 14 eggs that were placed on moist perlite"...they look fertile.

You said..."1) should I be lookin for more eggs in the other pots or does 14 sound like all she might have been carrying? She doesnt look to have anymore in her as she is now back to being thin"...can you post a photo of her from just before she laid the eggs please? 14 could be all she has depending on the temperature your basking area was at and on how much you fed her.

You said..."2) should I transfer the eggs to moist vermiculite when it arrives on friday? Or just leave them alone on the perlite?"...many people use perlite and many use vermiculite. Both work as long as they are set up right. I'd lean on the side of not moving them.

I did not want to bother her and cause stress so I did not photograph her after she was mated with. She seemed a lot more aggressive than usual which i felt was momma protecting her eggs and herself. I did take a picture yesterday after she laid though, i have attached the image. I had read about temps and food intake affecting number of eggs, and how high egg count can affect the chameleon negatively.

The lay bin was a 2.5 gallon ( 1' wide by about 1' deep) bucket of play sand and coco coir mix. It was moist enough to hold tunnels. Also made sure there was a branch that provided entry into the bucket.

I just noticed the perlite I was able to find is enriched with miracle grow nutrients. Would you still lean towards leaving them in perlite? The nutes makes me think I should switch them to the verm but I do not know if the eggs would be negatively affected
 

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kinyonga

Chameleon Queen
You said..."
I did not want to bother her and cause stress so I did not photograph her after she was mated with. She seemed a lot more aggressive than usual which i felt was momma protecting her eggs and herself. I did take a picture yesterday after she laid though, i have attached the image. I had read about temps and food intake affecting number of eggs, and how high egg count can affect the chameleon negatively"""... I wanted to be able to see her size just before she laid.

You said..."I just noticed the perlite I was able to find is enriched with miracle grow nutrients. Would you still lean towards leaving them in perlite? The nutes makes me think I should switch them to the verm but I do not know if the eggs would be negatively affected"...I'd carefully move them ASAP to slightly moist vermiculite because of the enrichment of the perlite. Try not to turn them as you move them.
 

NAUSEATE

Member
You said..."
I did not want to bother her and cause stress so I did not photograph her after she was mated with. She seemed a lot more aggressive than usual which i felt was momma protecting her eggs and herself. I did take a picture yesterday after she laid though, i have attached the image. I had read about temps and food intake affecting number of eggs, and how high egg count can affect the chameleon negatively"""... I wanted to be able to see her size just before she laid.

You said..."I just noticed the perlite I was able to find is enriched with miracle grow nutrients. Would you still lean towards leaving them in perlite? The nutes makes me think I should switch them to the verm but I do not know if the eggs would be negatively affected"...I'd carefully move them ASAP to slightly moist vermiculite because of the enrichment of the perlite. Try not to turn them as you move them.
I will transfer them with care when i receive the verm. Thank you for answering my questions. Really appreciate you and all the help ive seen you provide to other keepers. Great Wealth of information on this site.
 

NAUSEATE

Member
Hi just curious what age is your girl ?
she is around 10-10.5 month range. She is from ramblin exotics. Here is the lineage i was sent when I purchased her. I females should be bread at about a year old. I jumped the gun when I was excited to see her flossing her big girl coloration.
 

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Flick boy

Chameleon Enthusiast
Hi @NAUSEATE since becoming a member did you ever fill out a husbandry form,? Anyway since forming ,calcifiying and laying eggs can take a lot out of females having your feeding ,supplements and lights is best to have a look at. Also you know that females can / do retain sperm ? So making sure everything is on point So as your girl does not produce to many eggs in the future which can put to much strain on her body and shorten life span 😉
 

NAUSEATE

Member
When breeding, it is recommended to wait until after the female lays an unfertile clutch successfully
I read about the infertile clutch but do not think I saw a reason behind it. Why is the infertile clutch important? Is it to make sure the female has no problem laying a fertile clutch later on?
 

NAUSEATE

Member
Hi @NAUSEATE since becoming a member did you ever fill out a husbandry form,? Anyway since forming ,calcifiying and laying eggs can take a lot out of females having your feeding ,supplements and lights is best to have a look at. Also you know that females can / do retain sperm ? So making sure everything is on point So as your girl does not produce to many eggs in the future which can put to much strain on her body and shorten life span 😉
I have not filled out the husbandry form. I did listen to the chameleon podcast for a very long time and followed his outdoor recommendations as close as possible since we are both in Southern California, but made changes as needed for my situation. I use sticky tongues outdoor supplement and follow the instruction per the chameleons age. I will try to get the husbandry form posted in this thread later on today.
 

NAUSEATE

Member
Hi @NAUSEATE since becoming a member did you ever fill out a husbandry form,? Anyway since forming ,calcifiying and laying eggs can take a lot out of females having your feeding ,supplements and lights is best to have a look at. Also you know that females can / do retain sperm ? So making sure everything is on point So as your girl does not produce to many eggs in the future which can put to much strain on her body and shorten life span 😉
• Your Chameleon -
4 ambilobes (2 males, 2 females)

• Handling -
Handled only when deep
cleaning cages

• Feeding -
Gutloaded crickets, dubias,
surinam, ocassional hornworn
as treats. I also feed another
Type of roach but i am blanking
Out on the name. The crickets
come from Rainbow.
. mealworms, and roaches came
from @jamest0o0

• Feeders are dusted in sticky tongue outdoor formula as per instructions depending on age. D3 is given ocassionally since my chameleons are housed outdoors in natural sunlight for majority of the year

• Watering - outdoor misting system that runs off a timer. 5 minute intervals, 4 times a day, 3-4 hours apart to allow things to dry and evaporate in between mistings. Let me know if I should cut back to 3 or even 2 times a day.

Indoors, I built a rain system using a fountain pump, black tubing, and watering rings. Water collects in a big tub which is vacuumed out. Entire system is cleaned weekly when chameleons are housed indoor. System runs twice a day. Early morning and before lights out. I hand mist one extra time on hotter days

• Fecal Description - brown with white urate. Ocassionally has a small orange tint to the urate but mostly white

• History - no problems as far as ive seen
Or have been told by
kammerflage, frams chams,
or Ramblin exotics


Cage Info:

• Cage Type - males are in 2’x2’x4
Females are in 18"x18"x36"

• Lighting - indoor enclosures have
arcadia 6.0 along with plant
And basking lights.

Outdoor cages use the sun.
I Tracked the suns movement
before deciding on
enclosure placement.
Weather is also constantly
Checked.

• Temperature - basking spot-80-85 degrees F for males and 80 degrees F for females while indoor. Multiple thermometers in each cage, as well as digital laser thermometer, and wired probe thermometers.

• Humidity - built a large fogger using pvc pipes, 20gallon tub, and a pond fogger. Fogger runs only at night on a timer, and once in the early morning. Everything is cleaned and rinsed very well once a week. Night humidity is 95-100%. Daytime is around 60-70%

• Plants - many plants from the chameleon safe plant lists. Outdoor enclosures are heavily planted to provide hiding spots as well as shade.

• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Outdoor enclosures are located
in my garden in very low traffic
area. Area is fenced off to keep
Dog and chicken out.
Indoor enclosures are set up on
tables. Cages have barriers in
between to avoid stressing on
another.

• Location - Los Angeles, CA
 

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Flick boy

Chameleon Enthusiast
Hi thanks looks good 👍 as for misting if 4 times a day works for you good although imo a bigger fluctation of of 50 to 70% rh. A govee mini wireless temp / humidity gauge is really good for downloading data to a smart phone or whatever to give you a good indication of your humidity fluctuations ( lol 😆 don't have it or them directly sprayed I just killed mine ) also check your night time temps foggers are only recommended when temps are below 67/65f . The govee is also great for this to ,to determine the best time to run your fogger
 

TayloredExotics

Established Member
I read about the infertile clutch but do not think I saw a reason behind it. Why is the infertile clutch important? Is it to make sure the female has no problem laying a fertile clutch later on?
Infertile eggs are significantly smaller and easier to pass. Producing a fertile clutch first go means a few things are more difficult:

1) She is likely young and not fully developed; at less than a year, I doubt she's the 60g I've seen discussed as the minimum weight for breeding. Eggs in general will also unfortunately take calcium that would otherwise go to building healthy bones; larger eggs mean larger shells, and therefore more calcium and other nutrients that she loses out on.

2) Passing infertile eggs the first time lets her body figure things out (ligaments in the pelvis that have to stretch, muscle contractions required to successfully pass eggs, etc.) before throwing in the added size and difficulty of fertile eggs. Many pregnant women take birthing classes; this is the chameleon version.

3) It gives YOU a chance to observe her over the course of a lay, without the added stress of expecting a fertile clutch. Does she stop eating the day or even week prior? How much exploring does she do prior to laying? Will she even use the current laying bin (sometimes they are picky!)?

4) It helps to show you are a responsible breeder. Waiting shows that you care about her health, rather than simply using her as soon and as much as possible. Do you care about her living as long and healthy as she can?

I've seen people advocate for allowing a female to breed and lay a fertile first clutch, but it's usually paired with qualifiers. Generally that's only acceptable if she is over a year old, over 60 grams, and you are experienced and comfortable with the laying process.
 

ERKleRose

Chameleon Enthusiast
@NAUSEATE what do you gutload with? Since you're using Sticky Tongue Farms supplements, you should be using Sticky Tongue Farms Vit-All as your gutload. Both the supplement and gutload need to be paired together when using Sticky Tongue Farms. Make sure to prepare the Vit-All according to the instructions, as well. If you don't already, I'd separate the feeders you're going to feed off the night before to save money with only using the Vit-All on them. Of course, still feed your bug colonies, just with something cheaper that's healthy for the bugs to grow and breed.
 

NAUSEATE

Member
@NAUSEATE what do you gutload with? Since you're using Sticky Tongue Farms supplements, you should be using Sticky Tongue Farms Vit-All as your gutload. Both the supplement and gutload need to be paired together when using Sticky Tongue Farms. Make sure to prepare the Vit-All according to the instructions, as well. If you don't already, I'd separate the feeders you're going to feed off the night before to save money with only using the Vit-All on them. Of course, still feed your bug colonies, just with something cheaper that's healthy for the bugs to grow and breed.
I use most of the sticky tongue line except the miner-all. Recently ordered new indoor,outdoor, and vit-all. The ones to be fed off are seperated the night before , the colonies are fed fruits and vegetables from the gutload list provided here on the forums. I also provide dry food. A question I have is, when bringing the chameleons indoors for the colder months, should I give them a week or 2 to adjust to the transition before switching to indoor supplements? I do not want to over-do their supplementation.


Infertile eggs are significantly smaller and easier to pass. Producing a fertile clutch first go means a few things are more difficult:

1) She is likely young and not fully developed; at less than a year, I doubt she's the 60g I've seen discussed as the minimum weight for breeding. Eggs in general will also unfortunately take calcium that would otherwise go to building healthy bones; larger eggs mean larger shells, and therefore more calcium and other nutrients that she loses out on.

2) Passing infertile eggs the first time lets her body figure things out (ligaments in the pelvis that have to stretch, muscle contractions required to successfully pass eggs, etc.) before throwing in the added size and difficulty of fertile eggs. Many pregnant women take birthing classes; this is the chameleon version.

3) It gives YOU a chance to observe her over the course of a lay, without the added stress of expecting a fertile clutch. Does she stop eating the day or even week prior? How much exploring does she do prior to laying? Will she even use the current laying bin (sometimes they are picky!)?

4) It helps to show you are a responsible breeder. Waiting shows that you care about her health, rather than simply using her as soon and as much as possible. Do you care about her living as long and healthy as she can?

I've seen people advocate for allowing a female to breed and lay a fertile first clutch, but it's usually paired with qualifiers. Generally that's only acceptable if she is over a year old, over 60 grams, and you are experienced and comfortable with the laying process.
I definitely care about my chameleons health and try to provide the best care possible. I will be following the recommendations in the future with my other female. Thank you for answering this and clearing up a lot of things for me. Very much appreciated
 

TayloredExotics

Established Member
I definitely care about my chameleons health and try to provide the best care possible. I will be following the recommendations in the future with my other female. Thank you for answering this and clearing up a lot of things for me. Very much appreciated

I'm glad, I know it's a odd concept to understand at first. I also understand that it can feel wasteful to have infertile clutches when you're planning to breed anyway, since she is using resources to produce those eggs. Even so I do think it's better to wait. Thanks for asking questions other people may not want to as well!
 
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