Edema

[Rhea’s mum]

So glad to see he is doing much better, such a handsome man.
I have read many cases in the UK of edema being attributed to the earth pro-A. Arcadia supplements are much more available over here with them being made in germany. Most of the cases I have read about are generally in females that are given the EPA. Arcadia are normally pretty good with their customer support so might be worth sending them an email as they are one of the few companies I actually see showing research, as it may be something they can look into for future adjustments of supplements.

 

[jannb]

Just want to update my thread with Paddy’s progress. I currently have him on plain calcium with every feeding (every two days) and Reptivite no D3 once a month. I did notice when I was dusting twice a month some slight edema so now it’s only once a month on one feeder. He seems to be pretty sensitive so I am being very cautious. Here are some recent pics.
View attachment 299866View attachment 299867View attachment 299868View attachment 299869

Thanks for the update Janet! Patty is looking really good!

 

[CasqueAbove]

Hmm wonder what could be in the bee pollen. Its down to 2 things; a non water soluble vitamin, or a protein/amino acid. And it got to be in pretty big concentration.

The thing about bee pollen is that it is a great part of their natural diet. BUT more is not better. Now that it is being added to other supplements we need to look closer. I mean how much pollen does a bee carry right. We also need to make sure how much other supplements they are getting. Bee Pollen is potent stuff so on top of other mixtures I could easily see it being too much. I have been accounting for this by treating it as a low dose supplement. Meaning I do not use bee pollen and a multivitamin. It is one or the other. Currently I am using Fluckers Reptile Vitamin with beta Carotene. So I am only using the bee pollen as a feeder supplement. I am still researching this. I would like to go just bee pollen but still need more research.

 

[janjan20]

So glad to see he is doing much better, such a handsome man.
I have read many cases in the UK of edema being attributed to the earth pro-A. Arcadia supplements are much more available over here with them being made in germany. Most of the cases I have read about are generally in females that are given the EPA. Arcadia are normally pretty good with their customer support so might be worth sending them an email as they are one of the few companies I actually see showing research, as it may be something they can look into for future adjustments of supplements.

I still have my female on their D3 supplement she is doing well and has had no issues. I did discontinue the EPA for them all since two of the four were having edema.

 

[janjan20]

Just wanted to add an update to this thread.

Early December I noticed Paddy had developed edema again. Not as bad as last year but noticeable. His regular supplement is just plain calcium, with the occasional vit A, Ca/Mg, and multi. Last he had the others was in November.

Last year the edema subsided when the weather got warmer and he started pooping more. My theory was his slower metabolism caused the build up of supplements due to the colder weather. He had no issues during the summer time. I took note that this year when the edema started again we had our first cold snap so he was only pooping once a week or every other week. The edema would wax and wane depending on the day.

Due to the colder weather this past week I have had him (and others) in the house with more controlled temps. He’s pooped 2 times and now looks perfectly fine with no edema.

I have not had blood work done and just monitored his condition since he is getting better. He is still his normal self eating and hanging out. He’s been more active this winter than last so that is a plus.

Have any other keepers experienced anything similar during winter months?

 

[Beman]

Have any other keepers experienced anything similar during winter months?

nope... but Beman is already in the house with controlled temps.

 

[DocZ]

Just wanted to add an update to this thread.

Early December I noticed Paddy had developed edema again. Not as bad as last year but noticeable. His regular supplement is just plain calcium, with the occasional vit A, Ca/Mg, and multi. Last he had the others was in November.

Last year the edema subsided when the weather got warmer and he started pooping more. My theory was his slower metabolism caused the build up of supplements due to the colder weather. He had no issues during the summer time. I took note that this year when the edema started again we had our first cold snap so he was only pooping once a week or every other week. The edema would wax and wane depending on the day.

Due to the colder weather this past week I have had him (and others) in the house with more controlled temps. He’s pooped 2 times and now looks perfectly fine with no edema.

I have not had blood work done and just monitored his condition since he is getting better. He is still his normal self eating and hanging out. He’s been more active this winter than last so that is a plus.

Have any other keepers experienced anything similar during winter months?

Are you heating your home right now? What’s your ambient humidity like in the house?

I think dependent edema is most times going to be due to organ insufficiency of some kind, and the most likely systems involved are cardiopulmonary, hepatic, and renal systems.
I have no idea what the prevalence of cardiac disease is in reptiles (another research project ). Hepatic disease leading to edema would usually only occur in fairly advanced disease and wouldn’t resolve very easily. I’m certain fatty liver disease can occur in overweight animals and I’m sure this sometimes leads to end-stage disease, but again unless we transplant that Chams liver, it’s not going away. This leaves renal insufficiency, which definitely seems to be the most likely culprit. Dehydration leading to acute renal insufficiency I think is very common in reptiles, and probably leads to many of the health issues we see in captivity, gular edema, gout, renal secondary hyperparathyroidism (MBD), probably contributory to infectious problems, etc.
So I’m curious if the ambient day/night humidity is different in your indoor environment (it’s very dry in our home during the winter). But hypothetically this could lead to mild to moderate renal insufficiency and edema

That does not entirely rule out a supplementation issue either. There’s certainly some ways our supplements can also cause or worsen dehydration and lead to renal insufficiency. Usually this would be in the setting of hypercalcemia. High serum calcium leads to more filtered calcium in the kidney. This high load of filtered calcium essentially drags water with it that the kidney has trouble reabsorbing. High calcium also inhibits the effects of vasopressin (or anti-diuretic hormone ADH) in the kidney leading to more water loss in the kidney and worsening the dehydrating effects of hypercalcemia. So the question is whether a particular supplement, in this case EPA (although it sounds like you saw it with plain Ca w/o D3 as well) could be causing some sort of hypercalcemic state leading to dehydration and acute renal insufficiency. Sounds like another research project for me

It’s an interesting problem, and I don’t think it can chalked up to one single factor (change supplements, etc). Unfortunately almost all the health issues are likely multifactorial and require several issues to be handled at once. And as you mentioned, lower winter activity could be contributing as well

 

[DocZ]

As Casque has already said bee pollen is not totally benign from a supplementation standpoint. It does have some fat soluble vitamins, including D, although for the life of me I can’t find a resource with D3 levels in bee pollen (@kinyonga ).

It appears it has PROvitamin A through beta carotene, but also has E and K and some water soluble B vitamins

If it had high levels of D that are bioaccessible, it could potentially cause some form of D3 overdose-hypercalcemia-dehydration-renal insufficiency

 

[kinyonga]

@janjan do you change how/what you feed the insects you feed to your chameleon seasonally when the edema occurs?

 

[kinyonga]

@DocZ said..."It does have some fat soluble vitamins, including D, although for the life of me I can’t find a resource with D3 levels in bee pollen"... So far no luck. Maybe tomorrow?!

 

[kinyonga]

I found a reference here about the amount of vitamin D...don't know the site other...and it's talking about pine tree pollen...so take it for what it's worth....
" Unconjugated vitamin D and its metabolites were investigated in the pollen of Pinus nigra Ar. and Pinus sylvestris
L. It was found that vitamin D (D2, D3) was present in the pollen in amounts about 2 micrograms/10 g and 25-
OHD3, 24,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol [24,25-(OH)2D3] and 1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol [1,25-(OH)2D3]
between 0.1 and 3 micrograms/10 g of pollen, dependent on pollen species and method (SADEN-KREHULA, M; TAJIC, M, 1987)"...

https://healthywithhoney.com/bee-pollen-composition/

 

[DocZ]

I found a reference here about the amount of vitamin D...don't know the site other...and it's talking about pine tree pollen...so take it for what it's worth....
" Unconjugated vitamin D and its metabolites were investigated in the pollen of Pinus nigra Ar. and Pinus sylvestris
L. It was found that vitamin D (D2, D3) was present in the pollen in amounts about 2 micrograms/10 g and 25-
OHD3, 24,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol [24,25-(OH)2D3] and 1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol [1,25-(OH)2D3]
between 0.1 and 3 micrograms/10 g of pollen, dependent on pollen species and method (SADEN-KREHULA, M; TAJIC, M, 1987)"...

https://healthywithhoney.com/bee-pollen-composition/

So there’s 200 mcg/Kg of D2/D3 in the pine pollen. After some googling that is apparently about 8000 IU/kg.
That’s at least a starting point. Thanks!

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/589256_8

 

[kinyonga]

So there’s 200 mcg/Kg of D2/D3 in the pine pollen. After some googling that is apparently about 8000 IU/kg.
That’s at least a starting point. Thanks!

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/589256_8

If I find more I'll let you know!

 

[janjan20]

Are you heating your home right now? What’s your ambient humidity like in the house?

I think dependent edema is most times going to be due to organ insufficiency of some kind, and the most likely systems involved are cardiopulmonary, hepatic, and renal systems.
I have no idea what the prevalence of cardiac disease is in reptiles (another research project ). Hepatic disease leading to edema would usually only occur in fairly advanced disease and wouldn’t resolve very easily. I’m certain fatty liver disease can occur in overweight animals and I’m sure this sometimes leads to end-stage disease, but again unless we transplant that Chams liver, it’s not going away. This leaves renal insufficiency, which definitely seems to be the most likely culprit. Dehydration leading to acute renal insufficiency I think is very common in reptiles, and probably leads to many of the health issues we see in captivity, gular edema, gout, renal secondary hyperparathyroidism (MBD), probably contributory to infectious problems, etc.
So I’m curious if the ambient day/night humidity is different in your indoor environment (it’s very dry in our home during the winter). But hypothetically this could lead to mild to moderate renal insufficiency and edema

That does not entirely rule out a supplementation issue either. There’s certainly some ways our supplements can also cause or worsen dehydration and lead to renal insufficiency. Usually this would be in the setting of hypercalcemia. High serum calcium leads to more filtered calcium in the kidney. This high load of filtered calcium essentially drags water with it that the kidney has trouble reabsorbing. High calcium also inhibits the effects of vasopressin (or anti-diuretic hormone ADH) in the kidney leading to more water loss in the kidney and worsening the dehydrating effects of hypercalcemia. So the question is whether a particular supplement, in this case EPA (although it sounds like you saw it with plain Ca w/o D3 as well) could be causing some sort of hypercalcemic state leading to dehydration and acute renal insufficiency. Sounds like another research project for me

It’s an interesting problem, and I don’t think it can chalked up to one single factor (change supplements, etc). Unfortunately almost all the health issues are likely multifactorial and require several issues to be handled at once. And as you mentioned, lower winter activity could be contributing as well

Thanks for the info! My home is around 73, his basking in the house is around 78. Humidity is between 45-50. He was only inside for about a week, normally he’s outside. I live in FL so we have pretty optimal conditions for outside housing.
As far as dehydration it’s hard to tell because he poops so infrequently this time of year so there is always some orange tinge to it. He’s larger but shows no signs of obesity. He’s sitting at around 210g and is fed 3 days a week. Of course I have never seen him drink and he has access to water. It is really a mystery, if it flares up again I’ll be taking him in for some blood work.

 

[janjan20]

@janjan do you change how/what you feed the insects you feed to your chameleon seasonally when the edema occurs?

No change, he still gets the same rotation of roaches and silks.