dried blood at vent, then slight fresh blood, then tiny urate or sperm??

[Echoezra]

Yes, I don't know what VIN is, vet info network?? He does do something like that, he came in taking pictures, I think that's what it was for, so he could go message the case to other vets for their help. He said he wasn't even going to send them the stuff yet cause he knew they'd say where's the fecal results.
Oh yeah I forgot he also said about how vit a is a fat soluble vitamin, so I have to add vegetable oil to my crickets, "because there is no fat in any insects." I said, well I know there's not much fat in crickets, but I know there's some in other insects, like superworms and waxworms, because it's a common warning that even though lizards love the taste of waxworms you can't feed them regularly only a treat because they are too high in fat" he said well I've never heard of that. I said I'm sure I've even seen charts where they list out protein, calcium phosphorous and I'm sure fat was on there too.. He said well there were no such studies done on insects as of this report (2003) but if you can find an actual scientific study like this one with that information, I'd like to see it, email it to me. So, I mean, I don't know.
He's pretty well established as the main exotic vet in town, even specifically mentioning reptiles. I asked specifically about chameleons on the phone and they said yes, he's seen quite a few. Another member here recommended him and said he does do that vet networking thing, so I was expecting that, but I thought that would be in a tough case, second opinion kind of scenario. If I wanted a random anonymous Internet based diagnosis, lol, well, I'd come here obviously!! Plus you guys are free!! Hahaha. Sigh.

 

[Scott85]

I have had vet appointments like that. It is true that vets well versed in chameleons are hard to come by. I drive an hour an a half to my vet past 3 other reptile vets and countless "cat and dog" places. The experience is well worth the extra travel time. If you can find another vet in your area I would try another opinion. Call and ask specifically if they have seen a chameleon before.

I would be very weary of using the Vit A that he gave you. I will try and find the paper that I read this in, I know I have posted it once before. One female panther I own a persisant uri, she was one of the ones with the bad reaction to the baytril. In the course of searching through vets one of them gave her a shot of Vit A, D3 and Calcium. A day or two later I was clearing her mouth of mucous and to my suprise the skin slid off the sides of he head. Not like a shed skin sliding, but like her actual skin. For a very long time she had just two scabs on either side of her head. Trying to figure out why this happened, I came across a paper that stated that hypervitaminosis A will lead to "skin sloughing". I do remember that quote vividly though.
I returned to the same vet office, but requested to see a different vet. I spoke to her about the dosing. I found out that she administered way to much Vit A. Even the other vet I saw was extermely disturbed by the amount and its effects. As I said I will look for the article.

Did he have anything to say about the swelling other than it might be hemipenal impaction? To be honest I could find very little info on what exactly that condition even is. But I take it to mean that the hemipenes will not come out. That would seem to be a side effect of the swelling, not a cause for it.

Ill look for that article for you in a few minutes.

 

[Scott85]

Here is the article and the quote I remembered. Along with the link to the site. Vit A is a fat soluable vitamin. It is stored in the fat pads if not used, and will build up if he already had a good supply. That is mainly pertaining to injections. I would try and find out the IU/ml concentration before you even attempt it.

Hypervitaminosis A:
Hypervitaminiosis A is a true toxicity and is usually caused iatrogenicly by an overdose injection of concentrated vitamin A preparation by the veterinarian. Clinical signs mimic a dermal burn and include sloughing of the skin. Treatment resembles burn wound therapy, including antibiotics, addressing the open wound and administering parenteral fluid.

Injections with highly concentrated vitamin A (e.g. 500,000 IU/ml) should be avoided and this preparation given only orally. Aquasol A (by Astra) is a good alternative for injection because it contains only 50,000 IU/ml.

http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/vet-dept/avian-exotic-dept/nutritional-related-diseases-in-reptiles.aspx

 

[Echoezra]

He hasn't given me anything yet, apparently a local pharmacy mixes it up for them cause it comes in too strong, they mix it with an oil - I think he said cottonseed? Not sure, but the concentration was something like 10,000 iu per ml? And then he said I could dilute it as I wanted with my own oil, give it as I wanted. Lol. Nice prescription! Haha but I'll have to ask him again about what else is in it. He said no shots, he doesn't like to give them shots, cause it kills tissue, or he won't open their mouths either cause that can mess them up. So he wanted some sort of a saliva swab too, I'm like can't you do that yourself now? No he wont open his mouth. So I'm supposed to wait and "catch him while he's shooting at a cricket?? Haha. And of course everyone always has a Qtip in their hand while chameleon catches crickets. Right. Or like if j saw spit dribbled on his lip. He's not too droolly, he's no St. Bernard.
He honestly talked at length on the vit a thing, barely mentioned parasites or infection, only seemed like because I asked about it. He seemed sure right away that the thing that came out after the blood was a sperm plug. May e the impaction thing just implies that the sperm plug was stuck plugging,
therefore hemipenis was impacted??

 

[Echoezra]

By the way, I meant to add yikes that sounds terrible! That's the first thing I was afraid of is I grabbed the paper from him and said so what are the signs to watch for for hypERvitamintosis? Cause if I start this supplementing this regularly, and as I said he is overly sensitive to it.. And the vet just cut me off and answered "I've never sent that" as in not an issue, the hypo is the only issue. Well surely if it's so easy to under-do, primarily caused by the orignal paranoia not to over-do, then start supplementing like a madman, it's almost probable that you would very easily over do it and should be totally on guard for symptoms of such. Duh.. So I'm like fine, sounds like he's never seen a lot of things. Lol. It's not like I wasnt gonna read up on it myself anyways, but still an odd answer to a very valid question. If ii do give any of this liquid a, I plan to dilute it enormously. I'd like to hope there's an early indicator to notice before spontaneously evacuating skin. Poor poor baby, I would have freaked the holy crap out.

 

[Scott85]

He sounds um... well a nice guy maybe? I would get another opinion if it were me.

If he wanted the swab for a baterial culture. It would be pointless for you to obtain it. It would have to be taken on a sterile swab and kept sterile until it is cultured. They make kits for this. The bateria wouldn't be present in his saliva unless the bacteria has entered his blood already. A more likely place to swab would be just inside the vent.

He maybe right about plugs being stuck up in there. If that were the case the area would feel very hard. If he is unwilling to open a chams mouth, how is he going to feel about having to remove them?

Just wanted to add, most people that want to add vit a to their chams diet will use human capsules. 8000 Iu capsules, poke a hole in it with a pin and put a teeny tiny drop on one feeder. Depending on who it is will vary greatly as to how often. But I havent heard of anyone doing it more than once every other week to once a month. Just to give you an idea of how much some people give. This is a topic of much debate.

 

[Echoezra]

He maybe right about plugs being stuck up in there. If that were the case the area would feel very hard. If he is unwilling to open a chams mouth, how is he going to feel about having to remove them?

Yeah, exactly, that's what I was thinking. I mean, I'd be nervous too, their crazy tongues and everything, don't want to mess with anything, but you know what? I'm not a vet. If you need to take samples out or put medicine in, you should be confident with a technique to do so. If they (mouths) are so delicate, maybe you shouldn't be trusting me to try to finagle halfhazardly around in his momentarily opened mouth with a foreign object??? Lol

Well, I was wondering about a plain version if I'm diluting it myself anyways. Why they need this special mix, maybe it's made from some special source. I don't know. I'll look on that paper tomorrow about what it says for dosing bu it was way more frequent than that. And I'm sure that that's what he'll recommend since everything else he said was straight off that paper.

 

[Scott85]

They are probably diluting it from some higher concentration is all. Might be something like 50,000 IU/ml. Just making it into a measureable amount for your small doses.

I'm glad you got what I was trying to say about the vet. I don't like the ones that feel uncomfortable handling an animal. I take it as inexperience.

 

[laurie]

Ok time for me to jump back in, sorry but that vet sounds almost like the cow & horse vets that are all my small town has to offer. More than once they have given me things that would kill my chams. Once it even did happen, but we won't go into that. They gave me large animal baytril, had I given that dosage to my cham it would have been all over. I am very,very lucky to have one of the best, if not the best chameleon vet in the US as a friend. Bless his heart, Dr Ivan Alfonso helps he as mush as he can. Nothing given to be by the loval vet will get near my cham until Ivan gives it the ok. He has even consulted by phone to explain to the vets here what to do!! I even bought the vet here Mader's text on Reptile Surgery and Medicine. Can't see that it has helper much.

If you could find a really good chameleon vet maybe you could offer to pay him to consult with the lame vet you have so you can at least get better care. Most of the vets are not bad vets, they are just not chameleon vets.

I will see if we can get Kinyonga to explain more on Vit a. for you. Let me get a PM off to her.

 

[Scott85]

Thanks laurie, kinyonga is the master of vit a issues! I have read many of the posts she has contributed to on it. I don't think that is the cause though. Being that he is a WC I just think it unlikely that she would be low on vit A, this soon after import.

Please speak up ANYONE if I am wrong in saying this. I don't want to be misleading her in any way. All I want to do is get this cham the help it needs asap.

I didnt even think of trying to find someone for her vet to consult with. I did start thinking last night though that she probably won't be able to find another vet given her location. So yea that is an awesome idea, if her vet would be willing to. And it would give her a working relationship with two vets at the same time. Which in this hobby is invaluable!

Hope to hear from you soon kinyonga. Laurie again awesome idea!

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

To be honest, vets receive very little training on reptiles in school unless they seek it out. It's very rare to see people with reptiles in practice, and there is so much other material to cover with more common species and problems that it falls by the wayside. It's not required or included in regular curriculum so vets that aren't interested in reptiles personally usually have very limited experience with them. It sounds like this guy has had turtles. That's not to say they're a bad vet, they may be brilliant for dogs/cats/horses, etc! Just not reptiles. And reading up on them only provides you with so much experience. This vet probably saw how attached you were to your little guy and is worried that if he handles him wrong because he's not experienced then he might do more harm than good - probably why he hoped you could get a swab. If he posts to VIN (veterinary information network), which it sounds like he plans to, then hopefully he can get some expert vets to consult with. I've seen that a lot. Or if there is a vet he can call to consult with that would be great too.

He ordered you compounded vit A, which means the pharmacy starts with a very concentrated dose and dilutes it down to what you need. Seeing your hesitation he was probably trying to offer that you can dilute it further to ease your fears and acknowledge that you seem like a very knowledgable owner.

I don't know much about the issue itself to be honest but can't some WC be kept with whoever imported them for quite a while waiting to be bought? In that case we don't know what kind of nutritional support it was getting with the dealer. Seems like there would be other abnormalities too if that were the case though. Dunno...

 

[laurie]

A article to read while we wait for Kingyongia to sign on
http://www.vetlocator.com/newsarticles/pet_lizard_conditions.php

Hope it give more info

 

[Scott85]

Ferret you make alot of good points. I understand there are alot of issues with the more common pets. So many that it has to be hard to keep up to date on everything. Especially when you add exotics into the mix, and their exotic problems. And reading about it isn't as good as having experienced it.

You may be right about the cham sitting in a wholesale facility for a while. I generally purchase direct from the importer, and most times its within a month of clearing customs. I know the importers dont like to hold onto them for long at all, cuts into profit margins.

All I was thinking was there would be other abnomalities if it were vit A like you said.

Nice read laurie, I saved it to my folder of health links .

 

[kinyonga]

I didn't chime in here before this because things seemed to be going along well for the most part!

I just re-read all the posts to see what needs to be said...being that its a WC flap and you've only had it for a short time, I can't see why it would be short of vitamin A yet unless it was kept in captivity for a long time from the time it was caught until it got to you....and that would be strange to me.

I think the vent area looks a little swollen too as Scott85 said...but I need a better picture to be sure. I looked at the photos in your other thread and couldn't see the same swelling there...so maybe it had to do with what came out of him? I'd like to see a better picture of the sore on its leg too. Do you notice it rubbing that area on the branches? (I know you said in one post that he was dragging his butt on the branch...but they do that when they poop. I'm meaning more often than that.)

The fact that he puked bothers me....could be from overeating though...or parasites. I assume it hasn't done it again since?

You said..."He wants me to start dosing him directly with this vitamin A liquid, I wasn't too clear on whether it also had D3 in it"...it always amazes me that so many vets jump straight into giving the chameleon a shot of vitamin A. In all the years that I've kept chameleons, I've only had one necropsy show a lack of vitamin A and oddly enough it was back in the days when I used Nekton Rep which had prEformed vitamin A in it. IMHO you need to be careful of vitamin A. I'm not saying not to give it any...just don't overdo it.

Vitamin A and D3 are somewhat antagonistic to each other and excess prEformed vitamin A may prevent the D3 from doing its job...so they need to be in balance. At least the vet is right about the vitamin A being fat soluble...but nobody I know of adds vegetable oil to the crickets.

These help to explain supplements....
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200604210...d.Calcium.html

Insects and fat...
According to this crickets have some fat but not much compared to a silkworm or a caterpillar...of course....
http://www.planetscott.com/babes/nutrition.asp
And here's another site...
http://www.ent.iastate.edu/Misc/insectnutrition.html

And this one....
"My nutritional tests showed that dishes prepared with insects were lower in protein and higher in total fat content than their chickencontaining counterparts."...
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=f28aa282-38c3-419e-8327-a089093c1b6b

Here are some threads about vitamin A as well...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/vitamin-vs-beta-carotene-53663/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/vitamin-vs-carotenoids-52846/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/vitamin-51101/

Also here's an article on flaps...IMHO flaps are not the easiest of chameleons to keep well in captivity because they come from such a wide range of habitats that I almost think you need to know where exactly they came from...
http://chameleonnews.com/06SepDeckers.html

 

[Echoezra]

I absolutely agree. But...

To be honest, vets receive very little training on reptiles in school unless they seek it out. It's very rare to see people with reptiles in practice, and there is so much other material to cover with more common species and problems that it falls by the wayside. It's not required or included in regular curriculum so vets that aren't interested in reptiles personally usually have very limited experience with them. It sounds like this guy has had turtles. That's not to say they're a bad vet, they may be brilliant for dogs/cats/horses, etc! Just not reptiles. And reading up on them only provides you with so much experience. This vet probably saw how attached you were to your little guy and is worried that if he handles him wrong because he's not experienced then he might do more harm than good - probably why he hoped you could get a swab. If he posts to VIN (veterinary information network), which it sounds like he plans to, then hopefully he can get some expert vets to consult with. I've seen that a lot. Or if there is a vet he can call to consult with that would be great too.
He ordered you compounded vit A, which means the pharmacy starts with a very concentrated dose and dilutes it down to what you need. Seeing your
hesitation he was probably trying to offer that you can dilute it further to ease your fears and acknowledge that you seem like a very knowledgable owner.
I don't know much about the issue itself to be honest but can't some WC be kept with whoever imported them for quite a while waiting to be bought? In that case we don't know what kind of nutritional support it was getting with
the dealer. Seems like there would be other abnormalities too if that were the case though. Dunno...

I totally agree with everything you said, and that's how I imagined/expected it would be with the local vets actually, but then I got a recommendation for him and had already known that he was generally referred to as the main exotic and/or reptile vet in the area. And he advertises that way too. I figured more
common (beardies, snakes, etc) so less knowledge of chameleons, so I specifically asked while booking and they assured me yes oh sure, he has seen chameleons, and so I expected I had underestimated his experience. I would have felt better about it if he had come out and leveled with me " you know what, haven't seen that many, never this species, I'm planning to ask Internet colleagues to diagnose this for me." but he didn't say that at all. When he started to read me from the start of his chameleons 101 type of paper I tried to interrupt him to explain that I was familiar with the basics I had researched proper care beforehand, it wasn't a situation of -that's cute gimmee- to find out I had no lights and he was in a fish bowl eating cat food. I just wanted to save him time by assuring him conditions werent lacking these last ten days I've had him, he didn't need to read me the whole thing, it's not likely the basics, jump ahead and look for other causes. Well he didn't like that, me trying to stop him, so I watched him read me the whole thing.
I explained it's possible he may have been at the wholesalers for a bit and kept wrong there, but given that he seemed pretty young I didn't figure he probably wasn't there too too long, but I have no way of knowing. But it seemed to me that if the point of that study was that wild ones had vit A and captives didn't so supplementing is necessary, it seemed to me that it would be less likely this guy would be that vit A deprived since he had come from the wild. Unless it's a situation of used to more, then having to get used to none, like depleted rather than deprived, so that causing more problems than it would if one were just not having much to begin with?? I don't know.
I'll have to go read all those links you guys are sending, I didn't get a chance
to last night or today, but I find stuff like this all so fascinating, I just wish I had a more technical mind. I'm more like that's logical, makes sense, I could see why the connection, but never really fully understand the sciencey technical aspects entirely.
That's why I appreciate so much yOu guys participating with your opinions so I can have other viewpoints and recommendations particularly on the specific medical stuff like dosing and whatnot that I would struggle with Otherwise and possibly be relying on a vets less-than-fully-informed prescription.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Hopefully your vet can get some help from colleagues to get your little guy on the right track, which isn't a bad thing. Better to call in for help than blindly start treatments that may or may not address the right problem. Two minds are better than one! Vomiting was a sign of intestinal parasites in my veiled and once we identified the worm species and dewormed him the problem was resolved completely.

Vit A deficiencies are very common in turtles, especially water turtles, which is a common exotic species. So he's probably just trying to extrapolate from what he does have experience with to do his best to help you. I agree that it doesn't sounds quite right since chameleons are not afflicted with that particular problem like turtles are. And he may have seen some chameleons for easy issues like husbandry improvements so they may not have been lying to you about his experience, this just may be something he hasn't encountered before. Some excellent articles have been posted by very knowledgeable people so maybe that will help shed some light on what's going on here. I hope your little guy starts improving soon!

Side note: I love these forums and how helpful and knowledgeable people are!! I'm learning so much from just reading up on issues people are having! Hopefully that will make me a better vet when I finally get out into the world.

 

[kinyonga]

What I post is my opinion along with some sites and information that I have heard/read/learned along the way. Its up to the reader to decide whether to follow it or not.

Usually a scientific mind is a logical mind.

 

[Echoezra]

Right, and please keep the opinions/recommendations coming!
So, okay I'm not even against the diagnosis of hypovitaminosis A necessarily, as apparently it is as of yet not clear whether they need it supplemented or not or how much. I am leaning on the I still think it's more likely a parasite or infection thing, to be honest, but if vit a might help and is done lightly enough to not hurt, fine. So in that case, what would you say to dose this guy, being a youngish flapneck, his weight was 0.02 kg. ? This will not be injected, but oral. Vet said to put it on his nose so he would snort it in. That sounded weird to me, can I confirm that with you guys? I was just going to put it on a cricket.
The thing that sounded weird, to me, was that that was it. Give vit A. Is that going to magically quickly make the swelling & inflammation go away? I was expecting, like okay if Hyp A is the condition, and it caused symptom of hemipenal impaction? Well, isn't he still impacted? Inflamed? Possibly infected because of that?? How do we deal with that, Relieve the inflammation? I just would have expected there to be an additional treatment in order to help with the hemipenal issue, anti-inflammatory of some sort, something to help unplug it if there was still plugged-upedness. The vet was just sayin fixing the A will fix the mucous membranes, will in turn deal with the swelling. So does he still have one half plugged, is he going to keep bleeding, keep swelling... I don't know, if it is all about the A, is it going to reverse that fast, or is he going to have to suffer for a while while I gradually rebuild these levels?

 

[Echoezra]

R.i.p.

So I just wanted to say thank you guys soooo much for all the advise and information and support as I worked through this issue with my new little guy. Unfortunately, shortly after my last post I went to wake him up for the night, and he had one eye closed and he had apparently suddenly developed a raging URI. It happened so fast, maybe not even an hour and he died in my hand. You can go read the other post for details if you like, I don't think I can type it again right now, I'm still really shaken up about it all.
I just wanted to make sure I let you guys know here for when you checked back in, and to make sure I let you know how grateful I am for all your effort, especially you scott85 you must have typed for hours, in trying to help me fix him, I really appreciate it so much. I should have been quicker about things obviously, or maybe it was something I did wrong since yesterday, I'm not sure. I guess I was wrong in my theory about the vitamin A thing, because tonight was the demo of eye and respiratory issues that were completely non-existent yesterday. I feel awful, he really was so so sweet, really seemed to be
holding up so well through the handling & disruption the last couple of days even, I was getting quite confident he was going to pull through and be fine. Obviously wrong there.
Anyways, just wanted to thank you guys, and let you know how it turned out.

 

[kinyonga]

I'm so sorry to hear that you lost your little chameleon...but unfortunately, I'm not surprised...WC's are not always easy to get to survive.

If you get a necropsy done it might give you answers as to what happened.

How do you know it suddenly had a respiratory infection? Was it lifting its head in the air with its mouth open?