Does anyone use a liqued multivitamin?

jsikes88

New Member
After doing alot of research I have found that liqued is the way to go when it comes to admin of vitamins, not dusting,
Anyone try a liquefied vitamin??

justin
 

rickd5

New Member
Where did you hear that this is the way to go. I have down countless hours or research on here and I haven't seen that.

I'm not saying your wrong, I just want to know where you got this from...
 

jsikes88

New Member
Sublingual aka in the mouth has a 87% absorption ratio compared to "dusting" with a 5-9% absorption ratio, and with a liquid or syrup you can ensure how much intake your chameleon is getting by dropping a recommended dose instead of guessing on how many crickets he/she may eat.


justin
 

ferretinmyshoes

Veterinarian
Staff member
Do you have any studies to back up those numbers? Considering there are very few nutrition studies done on chameleons in general I am highly suspicious of where this data came from. And there are very, very few things absorbed sublingually better than through the process of digestion. I call cow poops on those numbers. No necessarily on the liquid vitamin aspect, although I would prefer dusting since I don't always have time to give oral meds.
 

jsikes88

New Member
I work for internal medicine doctors, they tell me what the absorption rates are for different medications/vitamins. I highly doubt chameleons are completely different in the way they consume and secrete vitamins, though im no self proclaimed expert I do know how to read numbers and when a chameleon who is sick gets administer about a fifteenth's amount of liquid orally NOT thru a dust must mean they want it to work. ;)

justin
 

ferretinmyshoes

Veterinarian
Staff member
I am aware of what sublingual intake means (which is the only thing you've actually provided here - a definition). But you have zero evidence to actually backup your numbers. Where did those come from?

Instead of finding a wiki answers definition maybe you need to look at the pharmacokinetics.

http://www.ijppsjournal.com/Vol3Suppl2/1092.pdf
Factors affecting the sublingual absorption

Lipophilicity of drug: For a drug to be absorbed completely through sublingual route, the drug must have slightly higher lipid solubility than that required for GI absorption is necessary for passive permeation.

Solubility in salivary secretion: In addition to high lipid solubility, the drug should be soluble in aqueous buccal fluids i.e. biphasic solubility of drug is necessary for absorption.
pH and pKa of the saliva: As the mean pH of the saliva is 6.0, this pH favors the absorption of drugs which remain unionized. Also, the absorption of the drugs through the oral mucosa occurs if the pKa is greater than 2 for an acid and less than 10 for a base.

Binding to oral mucosa: Systemic availability of drugs that bind to oral mucosa is poor.
Thickness of oral epithelium: As the thickness of sublingual epithelium is 100‐200 μm which is less as compared to buccal thickness. So the absorption of drugs is faster due to thinner epithelium and also the immersion of drug in smaller volume of saliva.

Oil-to-water partition coefficient: Compounds with favorable oil‐ to‐water partition coefficients are readily absorbed through the oral mucosa. An oil‐water partition coefficient range of 40‐2000 is considered optimal for the drugs to be absorbed sublingually.
You know all of those factors for all the ingredients in your vitamin specifically for reptilian mucosa and physiology? Yes, reptilian physiology and pharmacokinetics can be that different.

I am not saying that sublingual absoprtion is not superior for some compounds because there are some where that is the case. I'm saying you do not have the data to indicate that vitamins specifically are better absorbed via this route and that your numbers sound made up.

It seems to me to be a no brainer that dusting has been working for many generations of captive chameleons and therefore is clearly effective. You are suggesting otherwise and I'm merely asking you to prove it, or at the least provide sound evidence to support it. You're also suggesting that a liquid is going to be absorbed purely sublingually based on your argument. Why is that? Will it be rendered inert if swallowed? Since I give liquid calcium to mine (because it is a stronger concentration, not because it's better absorbed) I know that it works and she usually swallows most of it. When a chameleon eats a dusted cricket and it sits in the mouth for the same amount of time as a liquid would does it not also absorb sublingually? Why would a liquid formulation of the same compound be more or less efficient? These are the questions you need to answer to gain any footing, not just tell me what sublingual absorption is.
 
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Provancha65

New Member
Neither of these links provide any data regarding the benefit of using a liquid multivitamin and sublingual intake/absorption. One is quite literally nothing more than a wiki answer that does not include any sort of legitimate scientific, empirical references and the other is information compiled from a single reference derived from Kaplan Pharmacology that discusses the process in human subjects alone.

"I highly doubt chameleons are completely different in the way they consume and secrete vitamins, though im no self proclaimed expert I do know how to read numbers and when a chameleon who is sick gets administer about a fifteenth's amount of liquid orally NOT thru a dust must mean they want it to work."

I hardly know where to begin with this statement, there are hardly any similarities in regards to how a chameleon metabolizes and absorbs vitamins/minerals in comparison to a hominid. The fact that our metabolic rate and that of a chameleon differ so drastically should be an indicator of such a distinction. A sick chameleon who receives an oral medication is not receiving a vitamin, they are receiving either an antibiotic, anti-viral, or anti-parasitic solution that is in no way even related to a nutrient. Even if the medication is in a liquid form it's application may vary based on the case for which it is being prescribed. There currently is not enough information regarding the nature of the tissues within a chameleon's oral cavity, esophagus, stomach, or intestinal tract to even begin making such assumptions, or whether the anatomy of each varying species would react uniformly to said supplement applications.

Beyond all of this, it seems strange to challenge the knowledge of a Veterinarian/Biologist when you seem to be inquiring about the matter to begin with. Granted that veterinary school typically does not fixate on exotics extensively, let alone chameleons, field experience and biological research tend to help establish a foundation in which a DVM may draw from; VIN (Veterinary Information Network) is an equally invaluable resource that I feel will help advance the realm of herpetology drastically.

If I have made any statements that you may disagree with please feel free to address my errors accordingly, beyond that, being both polite and modest in criticism when interacting with forum members helps sustain, or even improve, the fiber of this community.
 

jsikes88

New Member
Provancha, thanks.
Ferrets and provancha, I need you to tell me if there are only one type of vitamins or if there are different sub classes of vitamins with different structures.
That is all,


justin
 

skyorion

New Member
Hello

if want to avoid problems seen Nutritional we must gutloader crickets or grasshoppers with milk powder, infant cereal, pollen, orange. herbaceous twigs, can avoid many of the problems of nutrient deficiencies, unlike the determination of vitamin powder

cordially
 

sandrachameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
....with a liquid or syrup you can ensure how much intake your chameleon is getting by dropping a recommended dose instead of guessing on how many crickets he/she may eat.
justin

are you forcing the liquid into its mouth? that doesn't sound like a good plan. but I don't know how else you'd be sure how much its getting. Further, why are you guessing how many crickets (and hopefully other bugs as well) your cham is eating? why not keep track / monitor?
 

jsikes88

New Member
Who is going to send a cricket off to get sampled....... Wait I im going to stop. Put 1,000 crickets in a bin, with two oranges a couple apples and a few potatoes for gut loading, ok they are good to go, no need to know exactly per drop of nutria they are getting

justin
 
so what jsikes88 is being coy about is that he has been working on developing a liquid nutrient for chams.

we bought some falys from him several months ago, and he sent some samples. the idea of putting our chams through the stress of injecting liquid vitamins in their mouths vs dusting their food was a complete no go. but we did try the product when we had a sick cham that wasn't eating. we mixed some of the liquid nutrients with the bug mash.

the big block to adoption will be getting people that want to essentially force feed their chams their vitamin supplements, and who believe the tradeoff in claims of better absorption are worth significant stress.

Mind you, chameleons don't like the taste of the vitamins... so even a "friendly" cham doesn't enjoy getting the liquid vitamins injected into their mouths. Now picture trying to incorporate into your regimen if you also keep WCs. Not happening. Stress will kill them before nutrition effectiveness even becomes an issue.
 
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