Difficulty Treating Edema

DanoHeinkel

Member
◦ Your Chameleon - Male Ambilobe Panther, 6 month old. 5.5 inches N/V; 88 grams. Growing like a weed. I bought Mingo 4 1/2 months ago from Kammurflage Kreations. I’ve had a stellar experience with them! They have been incredibly helpful!

◦ Handling - About once a week.

◦ Feeding - Feeding 10-12 PetCo Crickets 6 days a week. Gut loading using Repashy Bug Burger, Oranges, Melon, Zucchini, Grapefruit, Carrots, Apples and Bananas. I always have Bug Burger, one veggie and one fruit in the cricket enclosure at a time. (In the last few weeks I have stopped using carrots due to their high vitamin A content.)

◦ Supplements - Repashy CalciumPlus. Initially, I dusted at every feeding for the first 3 months. When the Edema formed, I stopped supplementing entirely 6 weeks ago to see if I was over-supplementing (per the breeder’s advice).

◦ Watering - 1 nozzle Mist King system set to shower 10 minute at 8:30, 5 minutes and 12:30 and 4:30.

◦ Fecal Description - Stool is firm with white urate. Just had a smear and float done: negative for bacterial infection and parasites.

◦ History - About 2 months ago, Mingo’s urates were slightly yellow for about a week. He’s had previous health issues that I know of.


Cage Info:

◦ Cage Type - 18x18x36 all screen enclosure. Pictures below.

◦ Lighting - Up until last week, this was my lighting setup: 50 watt zoo-med basking bulb; 12” zoo-med t5 HO 5.0 UVB bulb. Last week, I changed to a 75 watt basking bulb, and swapped UVB bulb to a 26watt zoo-med 5.0 CFL bulb. Lighting is on a 12 hour timer (7am-7pm).

◦ Temperature - Cage floor sits about 75, with the basking spot at 94 (the basking spot was 85 before the recent bulb change). Lowest overnight temp is 70. Measured using dial thermometers.

◦ Humidity - Humidity ranges from 30% to 55% after mistings. Measured using a dial hydrometer.

◦ Plants - 1 live heart-leaf philodendron. Mingo went though a stage about 2 months ago that he wanted to shoot the water droplets that fall from the leaves; he bit off the tip of 2 leaves. Is it possible for him to have an allergic reaction to this? 1 Croton Nervia at the bottom of his enclosure. He doesn’t have much contact (if any at all) with this plant.

◦ Placement - Mingo’s enclosure is located in a spare bedroom that doesn’t receive much foot traffic. The air vent is across the room, about 10’ away. The top of the enclosure is 6 feet from the ground.

◦ Location
- Nashville, TN.

Current Problem - Gular Edema, and swelling of the inside of his mouth are the issues that I’ve been trying to diagnose for months now. It especially seems to flare up after feeding and when he is introduced to stressors (handling, loud noises, etc). 6 weeks ago, I stopped using my supplement (Repashy CalciumPlus) to see if it was hypervitaminosis A. His Edema actually worsened, slightly affecting the use of his tongue. Then, 9 days ago, I changed the UVB bulb to a CFL instead of a HO t5 to see if that was the issue. No change yet…

I’ve seen a vet twice. On the first visit, he proscribed .1 MLs of Furosemide to reduce swelling and .15 MLs of Baytril to kill a possible infection. I wasn’t confident in his solution (felt like we were not treating the root of the problem) but decided to go with it. 4 days later, Mingo was looking pretty exhausted—He didn't leave his sleeping spot until 2:30. But, thankfully, He came up to bask and ate 6 crickets. I called the vet and he suggested that we stop the furosemide since the swelling wasn’t receding. I saw him again yesterday for a fecal smear and float (it came back clear of bacterial infection and parasites). His main concern was that the possible infection would become abscessed, so he gave me the option of giving him a prednisone steroid shot... I declined. Didn't want to cocktail of drugs to overwhelm Mingo, especially if we weren't sure that it was an infection in the first place. And, again, it felt like he was trying to treat the symptom but not the cause. I asked if he could do a blood test to find the root cause but he didn't want to do that yet due to the stress it would cause Mingo. So… That’s all the pertinent info I can think of at the moment. Clarifying questions are welcome! Any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated!


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Do you know what petco feeds their crickets. I know crickets are known carriers for a grain fungus when fed rotting food that can cause edema on certain individuals and death in more sensitive species. If any mold is present in their food at petco which i am sure it is knowing how they keep theor cricks you need to stop crickets immediately and switch to a different insect. Increase mistings to more two more times for about 2 minutes each to help flush his system.
 
Do you know what petco feeds their crickets. I know crickets are known carriers for a grain fungus when fed rotting food that can cause edema on certain individuals and death in more sensitive species. If any mold is present in their food at petco which i am sure it is knowing how they keep theor cricks you need to stop crickets immediately and switch to a different insect. Increase mistings to more two more times for about 2 minutes each to help flush his system.

Wow, good insight. Didn't realize mold could cause edema. Just yesterday I started to buy my crickets at an exotic pet shop instead. I'll continue to do that! And I'll be extra vigilant against mold in my cricket enclosure, too.
 
I'm not saying it's certainly the crickets, but it is a good possibility for sure. They can pass on all sorts of nasty stuff. Can you replace crickets altogether with roaches preferably or possibly something else to see if that could be the issue. Especially if the immune system is compromised. Seems weird to say this, but roaches are actually clean compared to a lot of insects and much more so than crickets. I have read that their immune systems are strong, making them unlikely to carry most pathogens and in general they prefer to eat fresh foods.
 
I'm not saying it's certainly the crickets, but it is a good possibility for sure. They can pass on all sorts of nasty stuff. Can you replace crickets altogether with roaches preferably or possibly something else to see if that could be the issue. Especially if the immune system is compromised. Seems weird to say this, but roaches are actually clean compared to a lot of insects and much more so than crickets. I have read that their immune systems are strong, making them unlikely to carry most pathogens and in general they prefer to eat fresh foods.
Our problem is that everybody stereotypes the roach pests in our homes to the ones we feed. They are not as bad as they seem.
 
Oh I know... man it gets so old explaining to people that I won't find a colony of tropical roaches living in my pittsburgh basement. Please if somebody finds a giant pile of hissers, Dubia, orangehead, etc in their house.... don't call the exterminator, just call me. Those things are expensive, I'll take them where I can get em!
 
Some of my orange heads have become adults already and I have a bunch of hisser nymphs <3 but yes crickets can cause this issue though it's not a for sure. But sounds like you are doing a lot of the norm for treating this thing and time to start looking at the weirder stuff.
 
Hi!

Here some advices

Put back the t5ho, cut the big burger (contain vitamins like vit A, E and D3) too and give only fresh vegetable to your feeders for the moment, provide lots and lots of water, if possible give only silkworm and black soldier larvea (silkworm is a natural source of serrapeptasis, this is an anti-inflamatory natural med. and BSFL contain a perfect calcium-phosphorus ratio (carefull this one is more high in fat ;)). Get some calcium with no D3 and no phosphorus. You can continue vit carrots.. carrots only contain beta caroten, there is no vitamin A at all in carrots it the "dangerous" form.

Here.. unfortunately, your best luck is to go to a vet and ask for a blood punction soo see whats really wrong in the vitamin balance and actually apply the correct vitamin diet (you think this is a over A but what if this is a under A? ;) ).. this can be a looottt of things (Vit. A, D3, E or K or phosphorus or a disease)

Also, this can take a looott of time si be patient it took months to build up.. it will take weeks-months-years to build down
 
I'm not saying it's certainly the crickets, but it is a good possibility for sure. They can pass on all sorts of nasty stuff. Can you replace crickets altogether with roaches preferably or possibly something else to see if that could be the issue. Especially if the immune system is compromised. Seems weird to say this, but roaches are actually clean compared to a lot of insects and much more so than crickets. I have read that their immune systems are strong, making them unlikely to carry most pathogens and in general they prefer to eat fresh foods.
That's a really good idea. I'll start with dubia, Silkworms and BSFL for a few weeks and see how he responds.
 
Hi!

Here some advices

Put back the t5ho, cut the big burger (contain vitamins like vit A, E and D3) too and give only fresh vegetable to your feeders for the moment, provide lots and lots of water, if possible give only silkworm and black soldier larvea (silkworm is a natural source of serrapeptasis, this is an anti-inflamatory natural med. and BSFL contain a perfect calcium-phosphorus ratio (carefull this one is more high in fat ;)). Get some calcium with no D3 and no phosphorus. You can continue vit carrots.. carrots only contain beta caroten, there is no vitamin A at all in carrots it the "dangerous" form.

Here.. unfortunately, your best luck is to go to a vet and ask for a blood punction soo see whats really wrong in the vitamin balance and actually apply the correct vitamin diet (you think this is a over A but what if this is a under A? ;) ).. this can be a looottt of things (Vit. A, D3, E or K or phosphorus or a disease)

Also, this can take a looott of time si be patient it took months to build up.. it will take weeks-months-years to build down

So you think the higher UVB will HELP him recover? I've been told it could be the cause of the Edema.
Excellent suggestions! Just ordered some Silkies and BSFL to start him on ASAP. I'll get some new phosphorous and vitamin free calcium to start as well, and talk to the doc again about the blood test. That makes the most sense to me, too. Thanks for the help!!
 
Do you know what petco feeds their crickets. I know crickets are known carriers for a grain fungus when fed rotting food that can cause edema on certain individuals and death in more sensitive species. If any mold is present in their food at petco which i am sure it is knowing how they keep theor cricks you need to stop crickets immediately and switch to a different insect. Increase mistings to more two more times for about 2 minutes each to help flush his system.
I order my crickets from joshs frogs they are a lot cheaper and get a lot more
 
So you think the higher UVB will HELP him recover? I've been told it could be the cause of the Edema.
Excellent suggestions! Just ordered some Silkies and BSFL to start him on ASAP. I'll get some new phosphorous and vitamin free calcium to start as well, and talk to the doc again about the blood test. That makes the most sense to me, too. Thanks for the help!!

Let him the choice for the uvb (so try to have one light free spot) Chameleons know how much of uvb they need so if he need uvb he will get some but let him choice. Try to notice if he stay right under the UVB all the time or if he try to avoid it?
Also, try to lower your temperatures a bit at night if possible, sometime this is helpfull ;)

Good move for the silk and the BSFL feel him 50% less, i think 12 cricket a day is a lot for a panther (too my opinion? 3-5 cricket a day for an adult is enough)
 
Such a beautiful fellow! So sorry he is having problems. I have yet to find anyone who can explain edema in regards to why it happens and how to permanently eradicate it. I think a lot of it is just plain old guess work and trial and error and maybe you will get lucky. I will say he is awfully young to be having it. I don’t think i have seen one on here or any of the other groups I belong to, to develop it so young. I know you have a lot going on, but I would just like to say that you should add some more foliage to the top area of the cage. It is kinda bare. He doesn’t look like he has many places to hide, but not that has anything to do with the edema though.
 
A lot of edema can be multiple issues, like not enough hydration, incorrect supplements whether too much or too little and incorrect gutload for feeders. Often increasing fluids can help massively with small edemslas but this one is a large one so is likely multiple issues at once
 
Let him the choice for the uvb (so try to have one light free spot) Chameleons know how much of uvb they need so if he need uvb he will get some but let him choice. Try to notice if he stay right under the UVB all the time or if he try to avoid it?
Also, try to lower your temperatures a bit at night if possible, sometime this is helpfull ;)

Good move for the silk and the BSFL feel him 50% less, i think 12 cricket a day is a lot for a panther (too my opinion? 3-5 cricket a day for an adult is enough)
Good call! With the HO UVB it seems to penetrate the whole enclosure sine it's only 36". Using the CFL might give hime more options to bask and hide without receiving UVB. It is definitely worth thinking though, thank you! Haven't thought of lower night temps; I'll give it a try! How much lower? High 60s?
10-12 was a few weeks ago when I was still using medium crickets. It's closer to 6-8 daily these days.
 
Such a beautiful fellow! So sorry he is having problems. I have yet to find anyone who can explain edema in regards to why it happens and how to permanently eradicate it. I think a lot of it is just plain old guess work and trial and error and maybe you will get lucky. I will say he is awfully young to be having it. I don’t think i have seen one on here or any of the other groups I belong to, to develop it so young. I know you have a lot going on, but I would just like to say that you should add some more foliage to the top area of the cage. It is kinda bare. He doesn’t look like he has many places to hide, but not that has anything to do with the edema though.
Yeah, that's one of the things that concern me, too. He's just 6.5 months old now... And it developed when he was around 4.5... More foliage in the canopy was a breeder's suggestion, too! I'll go grab another live plant this week. Thanks for the heads up!
 
Thanks for the help, everyone! Trying to implement all of your suggestions to see what might help. Keep 'em coming!

Question: have you ever done a blood test on a cham? How mush stress does it cause? Would it be worth the stress to get a picture of the underlying issue?
 
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