DanoHeinkel
Member
You think the t5 HO would be better for treating edema? Or just not a fan of CFLs in general?
Difficulty Treating Edema
- Thread starter DanoHeinkel
- Start date
Mawtyplant
Chameleon Enthusiast
not a big fan in general, keep the t5ho but put it in the left or the right side of the cage only, it give your chameleon the possibility of self regulation,
UVB can help with the regulation of D3 vitamin (by photo conversion but also by degradation)
let your chameleon regulate what he need you would be surprise how he will try to get back to homeostasis. I really wish your problem is not too far in the kidney :/ don't want to scare you but if in kidney the prognosis is usually not good :\here some read about D3 regulation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2541158
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
@DanoHeinkel I am baffled by your vet's treatment, and to be honest, I would find another vet. Furosemide is a diuretic. That would be the last drug I would ever think a chameleon should have since chronic dehydration is a common problem and leads to kidney failure. The drug will dehydrate the animal and then you added Baytril on top. Yikes is all I can say.
I have not heard of a vet giving a chameleon a prednizone shot. I have caused severe edema in one of my wild caughts when the vet prescribed a topical ointment containing a bunch of things, including a steroid and the vet and I both think it was the topical steroid that triggered the severe edema.
What swelling that the vet thinks is an infection? If it forms an abscess, it will probably be walled off and won't bother him.
I've had many infections treated by vets and some never treated. Some were severe infections in the bones caused by injuries at import. Bone infections are pretty serious and we have treated with Baytril injections with good success. (I have a large collection of wild caughts that come in pretty mangled, so have lots of experience with injuries and infections.)
Can you show a picture of the swelling that the vet thinks is an infection?
Stop feeding the crickets. In fact, I bet you can get a lot of this under control if you fast him. I don't know how fat he is, but cut way down on his food intake, stop all supplements and increase his water.
Edema is caused by many things and is very often benign and no one ever really knows why. Forget the hypothesis of hypervitaminosis--captive chameleons are usually very deficient of Vitamin A not the other way around.
There can be damage to the lymph system causing a back up of fluids. There can be major organ failure. I found crickets were often troublesome. Most edema is benign and is supplement related.
Get him out in the sun and increase misting a lot.
I have not heard of a vet giving a chameleon a prednizone shot. I have caused severe edema in one of my wild caughts when the vet prescribed a topical ointment containing a bunch of things, including a steroid and the vet and I both think it was the topical steroid that triggered the severe edema.
What swelling that the vet thinks is an infection? If it forms an abscess, it will probably be walled off and won't bother him.
I've had many infections treated by vets and some never treated. Some were severe infections in the bones caused by injuries at import. Bone infections are pretty serious and we have treated with Baytril injections with good success. (I have a large collection of wild caughts that come in pretty mangled, so have lots of experience with injuries and infections.)
Can you show a picture of the swelling that the vet thinks is an infection?
Stop feeding the crickets. In fact, I bet you can get a lot of this under control if you fast him. I don't know how fat he is, but cut way down on his food intake, stop all supplements and increase his water.
Edema is caused by many things and is very often benign and no one ever really knows why. Forget the hypothesis of hypervitaminosis--captive chameleons are usually very deficient of Vitamin A not the other way around.
There can be damage to the lymph system causing a back up of fluids. There can be major organ failure. I found crickets were often troublesome. Most edema is benign and is supplement related.
Get him out in the sun and increase misting a lot.
CJ's Exotics
Chameleon Enthusiast
Link me to your resources!
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
Link me to your resources!
Mader's REPTILE MEDICINE AND SURGERY, Second Edition. I believe there is a third edition.
DanoHeinkel
Member
Thanks so much for your input. You're right, I think the Dr is worth cutting loose at this point. Too many questionable choices. Praying his kidneys haven't been damaged beyond repair...
The vet prescribed the baytril because he said he saw swelling in the mouth, though he saw no outright signs of stomatitis. The edema seems to have caused some mild swelling of the mouth which slightly affected the use of his tongue (made him a little less accurate). Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of this... If you think it is important I can get one later this week to show you. Water has been increased and supplements have been stopped (for the last 6 weeks). I would love some quidelines on how to fast him. How much should I feed per day (if any)? How long should I fast him? What are the underlying benefits?
Also, have you had experience with blood tests? Could that potentially give us an answer?
Thanks so much for sharing your experience, Janet!
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
I've never had blood tests done. Just to be clear, I've spent thousands and thousands of dollars on chameleon veterinary work and not one of my vets have recommended blood work. Pathology, yes, but not blood work. One of my vets is a board certified zoo medicine vet.
My vets often will prescribe a course of Baytril when they can't really find out what is wrong.
By fasting, I mean stop feeding completely for maybe a week. I would not do it if he is unwell or underweight or if you have any concern at all about his condition or if he is receiving medication. Change your gutload and get away from any grain-based gutload or high carbohydrate gutload such as potatoes, carrots or sweet potatoes.
I honestly believe many crickets are contaminated with a low level of aflatoxins but it doesn't actually kill the chameleon. It is a very difficult diagnosis to make as you can't do a blood test for it (you need too much blood for the test). It is often never diagnosed. I had a LOT of animals affected at the same time and maybe 10 or 15 full necropsies done by an exotic veterinarian pathologist who sent the slides to another exotic vet pathologist. If you want to read about my experience with aflatoxicosis, do a search on this forum. I posted a very long detailed thread on my experience with it last year.
As far as the swelling in his mouth, they often get debris between the gum at the base of their lips and their lips. You can take a damp cotton swab and swab the inside of his lips at the base of his teeth. Crickets are often really disgusting things covered in bacteria from being kept in poor conditions. Improve your bug husbandry and think about the conditions of the bugs before they came into your care. You can often treat an infection in the mouth simply by wiping the debris and caseous material (debris from infection) out of the mouth.
Chameleons really should not need veterinary care if you start with well nourished, healthy animals. Even battered wild caughts need less veterinary care than you might think. Give them what they need and they will heal themselves.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
@DanoHeinkel I forgot to respond to the tongue issue you mentioned. I don't think swelling causes problems with the tongue. I have one wild caught that came to me with a tongue abscess along with a face rub to the bone. Her tongue worked perfectly, abcess and all. That female, by the way, was not given antibiotics for the tongue because we were worried about opening up the abscess and flooding the exposed bone of her jaw with bacteria. She lost a lot of her top and bottom jaw, but is just fine two years later.
Injury and nutrition seem to be the culprits for poorly functioning tongue. Although I recommended no supplements, I would give human grade Vitamin A and calcium. Get Vitamin A gel caps from the pharmacy. I use one drop from an 8000IU gel cap on a feeder once a month. Not Beta Carotene--proper Vitamin A. I put a drop on a feeder and hand feed. Poor tongue function is also one of the early signs of MBD which can be caused by poor nutrition (calcium and D3) or kidney failure. There isn't anything you can do about kidney failure other than delay it by hydration, but you can do something about calcium/D3. Natural sunlight is the best. Good luck.
Injury and nutrition seem to be the culprits for poorly functioning tongue. Although I recommended no supplements, I would give human grade Vitamin A and calcium. Get Vitamin A gel caps from the pharmacy. I use one drop from an 8000IU gel cap on a feeder once a month. Not Beta Carotene--proper Vitamin A. I put a drop on a feeder and hand feed. Poor tongue function is also one of the early signs of MBD which can be caused by poor nutrition (calcium and D3) or kidney failure. There isn't anything you can do about kidney failure other than delay it by hydration, but you can do something about calcium/D3. Natural sunlight is the best. Good luck.
CJ's Exotics
Chameleon Enthusiast
I remember you telling me about this. Would you recommend I get the third edition? I'm very much in love with the price tag, the things we do for our pets! What is your POV on retinol? I have not done a ton of research on it yet, but I cam across it throught dart frogs, in the Vit A by Repashy.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
I think the third edition mentions amphipians, so yes, I would get the third edition.
I don't really think much of powdered Vitamin A as I believe it is water soluble. There are a few things about water soluble Vitamin A that I don't like and you will have to read Mader's to find out for yourself!
I give Vitamin A individually once a mouth with human grade Vitamin A.
Mawtyplant
Chameleon Enthusiast
I think the third edition mentions amphipians, so yes, I would get the third edition.
I don't really think much of powdered Vitamin A as I believe it is water soluble. There are a few things about water soluble Vitamin A that I don't like and you will have to read Mader's to find out for yourself!
Vitamin A is not water soluble ?
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
There is a form that is water soluble. Vitamin A can be given in an injection and that is water soluble Vitamin A. I believe the powdered stuff is also water soluble but could be wrong.
There was some issues in studies with the same amounts of Vitamin A (overdoses) given orally and by injection. I can't remember the details of the study but the water soluble Vitamin A caused an overdose but the same dosage of not water soluble did not. The study ended after two weeks and it wasn't determined if the Vitamin A overdose would have happened after the study ended. But, there seemed to be a protective element to non-water soluble ingested versus water soluble injected.
Mawtyplant
Chameleon Enthusiast
Ahhhh! ok yeah I got it this was a trial with a new synthetic form of the vit A, a water soluble one it was 10 time toxic than the vitamin A itself :/
fortunately the powder version of the vitamin A is hydrophobic (I try it myself after this post and this is impossible to mix with water). But, I agree with you to use the pharmacy pills anyway.. is cheaper and easy with the dosage than powder
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
Also, I have more faith in the product of a human supplement bought at a pharmacy over any reptile product. The liquid gel caps will last longer than any powder which immediately starts deteriorating when the jar is opened, even if kept in the fridge. I keep all my supplements in the fridge.
@Mawtyplant Are you in Quebec? I might be moving back to Canada in the near future and might bring some of my graciliors/quads. I miss Canada right now, especially I miss the laws Canada has against lying in the news. Surprisingly, it is perfectly legal in the US to out and out lie and present it as news.
Mawtyplant
Chameleon Enthusiast
yep! im in canada! if you move bring some melleri in town!! we neeeddddd more melleri haha! There is a lot of laws (more in Quebec) with reptile import! and lot of education to do
Where you want to move?
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
yep! im in canada! if you move bring some melleri in town!! we neeeddddd more melleri haha! There is a lot of laws (more in Quebec) with reptile import! and lot of education to do
Vancouver Island. My husband is from Victoria, I'm from Toronto but there is no reason to move to Southern Ontario and my husband is desperate to move back home. My eldest son will likely end up in Montreal--loves the city. I can't cope with t he cold, so Quebec is out for me. I'm getting homesick for Canada. I've been away since 1992.
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