Dehydration Help

[zukothechameleon]

Hi, I have a male panther, about 1.5 years old who we've owned for over a year. He's suffering from dehydration, I believe. He had his annual vet check up 3 weeks ago and came back in great shape no parasites. However, while on vacation the sitter noted he stopped eating and was in the middle of a shed, which isn't abnormal for him to skip a meal for 2-3 days. We sent him some crickets which he rarely turns down. However, by a later check in picture his eyes were showing slightly sunken so had her mist him each day. Returned to eyes very sunken and him asleep during the afternoon. It turns out the automatic sprayer stopped working and he's dehydrated. The first evening back I gave him a shower and he drank steadily for 45 minutes. I added a mechanical dripper he slept under. Yesterday, I was hoping he'd recover some, increased humidity, had a constant drip in the corner of the cage and the sprayer was back to working. He was looking alright early in the day, some calm colors back and eyes alert, but by afternoon had progressed to sleep colors while awake a little and sleeping by 3-4 hours ahead of when he normally tucks in. Eyes didn't seem to improve ultimately. I got him to drink 1.5 ML of pedialyte before he slept. Also, waiting on the vet since yesterday to try to squeeze him in. Two photos are attached of him content from a few weeks ago and onset of sunken eyes from Friday. He is still shedding his face.

• Your Chameleon
  1.5 year old panther, male.
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
  If he climbs out while trying to feed him, which happens once to twice a week.
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
  At this point, once a day, a combo of silk worms, horn worms, black soldier fly larvae, superworms, crickets. Silk worms and crickets are the staples. He hates dubia.
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
  Multivitamin and Calcium with D3 twice a month, calcium every feeding (Except black soldier fly larvae)
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
  Automatic mister at lights on and right before lights out, and fogger/humidifier always keeping it 60-80.
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
  Until the last few days, great. After drinking a ton on our return he has pooped, twice, both mostly water.
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
  From a reputable, small breeder.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
  2x2x4 reptibreeze screen cage.
  Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
  -Zoo Med ReptiSun 5.0 HO linear T5 UVB Lamp 22" 24 Watts
  -ZooMed 75 watt Repti Basking Spot Lamp, SL-25 for basking, 2nd incandescent, 50 watts farther from the cage to have half of the top reach appropriate basking temperature.
  These are on for around 12 hours a day, and off the other 12 hours.
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
  Temperatures in the basking zone sit around 80-85. Lower cage is 75 during the day, drops to 65-70 at night. I measure temps with thermometer guns and one thermometer/humidity reader next to the cage.
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
  Day time ~60%%. At night spikes to 80% and then drops back to 60% by morning.
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
  1 pothos, 1 larger ficus, 1 snake plant.
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? The cage is near a window and has an A/C nearby. It is kept on a table 3 feet off the ground. The top of the cage is about 2 feet from the ceiling.
• Location - Where are you geographically located?
  Maryland

 

[kinyonga]

What colour are the urates?

 

[zukothechameleon]

Thanks! For the two I've been around for yesterday were peach/orange and then white, both with a lot of water, and no real feces/food digest. My vet is able to squeeze him in about an hour as well and can hopefully help too.

 

[Beman]

Can you post pictures of the entire cage setup up along with pictures of the supplements you are using? When last did you replace his UVB bulb?

I would not suggest increasing humidity during the daytime. 60% is already sitting at the higher end of their recommended levels. Increasing it during the day with the heat can create an environment where they develop a respiratory infection. This also means you should not run a humidifier at all during the day. Only at night when temps are below 67 or even colder, which is better for them.

It could take him a few days to bounce back from dehydration. Especially if he was not getting water most of the time you were gone. Keep a dripper running during the day so he can drink as needed.

 

[zukothechameleon]

Hi, thanks for the reply. Here's a few photos of him yesterday, the full set up, and the supplements: . I just got back from the vet, she was happy with his colors, despite them being his sleeping colors and him being mostly sleep. She gave him some subcutaneous fluids, and EmerAid IC Omnivore to give him every other day. Said I should likely see him still sleeping another day or so and then hopefully start to turn around. If you have any recommendations for setup tweaks or otherwise, let me know. And I have notched the humidity back, for his setup during daytime, it's just still pretty wet from having the dripper on full blast for a day or so to try to entice him. And I replace the UVB every 6 months, most recently July 1. Thanks for the help!

 

[Beman]

So the colors are one thing... I am looking at how sunk in his turrets are.

Slow the drip rate on the dripper. You want it to entice him into drinking. Sleeping during the day is not a good sign... It is a sign of stress and or illness. This is actually a big cause for concern.

Is he eating on his own? If so I would avoid force feeding completely. Feed silkworms and hornworms. Smaller sized hornworms so they are easy for him to take down. These will increase hydration.

I am concerned that maybe this reaction your seeing is related to more than just dehydration. I am worried that the lack of water and if this happened the entire week you were gone may have compromised his renal function. Only way to know that though would be with blood work.

You said you replace your bulbs every 6 months. Can you tell me what your distance is from the UVB fixture sitting on the cage top to the branches directly below it? I would also suggest as a safety measure in case the bulb is faulty to replace your UVB bulb. Looking for 8-9 inch distance to the branches directly below for a 5.0 uvb bulb in a single bulb T5HO fixture.

Please note he is at an age where you are actually over feeding him. This creates obesity in chams. once he gets through this situation you want to take him to every other day feedings of 4-5 insects.

 

[zukothechameleon]

Thanks for all the details! I'm very sad to report he passed a few hours after the vet visit. I know he was stressed going to and from the vet, but it seems he was hiding how bad his dehydration was or something else was going on. He had stopped eating, first, and despite getting some of his favorite insects didn't rebound to eat since he had stopped, and then started displaying dehydrations symptoms (this is while we were away, frankly if he was a cat or a dog, I'd say it was a hunger strike from us being away based on his personality). He got a clean bill of health at his annual checkup, the vet called him the healthiest chameleon she had seen, just a few weeks prior. So, I'm blaming it on the sprayer breaking (it switched to only spraying once per day, it was enough to the manage the plants, but I strongly suspect may not have been enough to manage his hydration if he wasn't eating, it's my best guess since he had no other signs of illness). If you have any recommendations for mechanical drippers or sprayers happy to take them.

But, if I can ask a few questions based on what you shared to make sure I have things right for any future chameleon, if I get another. There's definitely a hole there, and not getting another soon. But, the screen of the top to the top of the branch running under it is exactly 9inches, for a 5.0 UVB. Do you know if the testers such as: https://www.amazon.com/REPTI-ZOO-Tester-Reptile-Fluorescent/dp/B07TJHQ2JR, are accurate and worthwhile for "faulty bulbs"? Or do you manage testing UVB levels otherwise? I was definitely under the approach of replacing every 6 months, religiously, would be sufficient.

And the food, that makes sense for his age, he definitely was slowing in eating once he was a year or so old, but I went by the offer food, if he eats immediately offer another, if he doesn't stop offering and leave it (and check how he's eating), but if he's eaten a lot don't just leave it in the cage, approach. Is a more calculated approach to insects worthwhile?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and helping!

 

[Beman]

Thanks for all the details! I'm very sad to report he passed a few hours after the vet visit. I know he was stressed going to and from the vet, but it seems he was hiding how bad his dehydration was or something else was going on. He had stopped eating, first, and despite getting some of his favorite insects didn't rebound to eat since he had stopped, and then started displaying dehydrations symptoms (this is while we were away, frankly if he was a cat or a dog, I'd say it was a hunger strike from us being away based on his personality). He got a clean bill of health at his annual checkup, the vet called him the healthiest chameleon she had seen, just a few weeks prior. So, I'm blaming it on the sprayer breaking (it switched to only spraying once per day, it was enough to the manage the plants, but I strongly suspect may not have been enough to manage his hydration if he wasn't eating, it's my best guess since he had no other signs of illness). If you have any recommendations for mechanical drippers or sprayers happy to take them.

But, if I can ask a few questions based on what you shared to make sure I have things right for any future chameleon, if I get another. There's definitely a hole there, and not getting another soon. But, the screen of the top to the top of the branch running under it is exactly 9inches, for a 5.0 UVB. Do you know if the testers such as: https://www.amazon.com/REPTI-ZOO-Tester-Reptile-Fluorescent/dp/B07TJHQ2JR, are accurate and worthwhile for "faulty bulbs"? Or do you manage testing UVB levels otherwise? I was definitely under the approach of replacing every 6 months, religiously, would be sufficient.

And the food, that makes sense for his age, he definitely was slowing in eating once he was a year or so old, but I went by the offer food, if he eats immediately offer another, if he doesn't stop offering and leave it (and check how he's eating), but if he's eaten a lot don't just leave it in the cage, approach. Is a more calculated approach to insects worthwhile?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and helping!

First, I am very sorry to hear of your loss. I have a feeling it was more than dehydration. I think there may have been some impact on his renal function due to not having proper hydration as it broke.

So, to answer your questions. I prefer the Arcadia proT5 with the 6% bulb. With these bulbs, you can go a full year without replacing them, and the T5HO fixture is of much better quality than what Reptisun offers. This limits the issue of a faulty reflector installation or a poor-quality reflector in the fixture. Both of these can impact the UVB output of the bulb. With this fixture and bulb you want a measured 8-9 inches from where it sits on the screen to the branch directly running below it. This will put the cham in a 3-4 UVI level based on how new the UVB bulb is. They start out stronger and then within a few weeks the bulb "burns in" and the UVB drops slightly.
A solarmeter 6.5 is the only way to get an accurate reading on your UVB levels and what the output is. The cards like you found are crap. They only id if there is UVB but this level that it id's can be far too low and you would never know. You would simply see the light is functioning and the card says the uvb lightwaves are there. But bulbs can be faulty and produce lower UVI output. Fixtures/ bulbs both can be an issue with this. One of those you get what you pay for. If you buy an offbrand chances are the quality is not going to be what you need to achieve the correct UVI at basking. Sorry this is probably more info than you wanted but I tend to be long winded trying to explain UVB and supplements.

With feeding yes there is a way to do it. So as babies, there really are no limits. Your feeding them as many insects as they want. Young healthy babies can easily take down 3 dozen insects per day. You will notice a natural curb down in appetite around 7ish months and amounts daily will drop. Respond accordingly. As males start to mature around the 9-10 month mark this is when you really want to kick them over to an every other day feeding schedule of roughly 10 insects. You will then slowly reduce so that by the time they are 12-13 months they are getting 4-5 insects every other day. You still have to watch them for signs of weight gain. If they start holding fat in their cheeks or in the casque this is a tell tell sign that they are getting too much food. This is when taking them to every 3 days for feedings can help and reducing to 3-4 insects per feeding. With chams when they show these areas holding fat they have already started holding weight around their fat pad that surrounds their internal organs. Where it gets dangerous is that it can compromise renal function as they age. If you have an issue of dehydration this can throw them into renal failure as well.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[zukothechameleon]

Thanks again for all these details, very much appreciate it!

 

[jamest0o0]

I’m just seeing this and I’m sorry to hear he passed. My suspicion is that this was not dehydration and something else going on. I’d go as far to say that sunken turrets usually meaning dehydration is somewhat of a myth. It is more of an indication that something is urgently wrong, whether it’s organ failure, stress, severe dehydration, etc. a lot of times people see it and think their chameleon just needs more water, but most of the time is not the case. Panthers live through drought like conditions in the wild(not that this is ideal) and will likely not be dying from dehydration without a mister for a period of time.


I hope none of this comes off rude, just trying to offer some insight.