dark/sleeping all day: Any help for a new baby (2 months) panther owner?

[Jcokenr]

Hi everyone.

I'm new to posting here (first time post, but I've been lurking for a few weeks reading everything!) My name is Jen and I'm a computer/reptile nerd from Milwaukee. *shakes hands* Sorry for the following to be how we meet... but I'm reaching a point of desperation and I'm open to anything at all. Normally I'm rather shy and prefer just to lurk.


Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon: Ambilobe panther chameleon, M, 2 months old. I've had him for about 6 days now, purchased from a breeder here on the forums in the classifieds.
Handling - As infrequently as possible-- only to move enclosures, now to feed.
Feeding - I've only seen the chameleon eat a couple of fruit flies on day 1, but I also have offered gut-loaded small crickets (sweet potato, oranges, and greens) and reptiworms (extra small size) which he ignores. At any rate, I have a cup in there with crickets and fruitflies that he also ignores.
Supplements - Well, the chameleon was sleeping all day literally the morning after I got him so I haven't started this, but I did my research, and had a schedule setup for reptical w/o D3 every day, herptivite 2/month and reptical w/D3 2/month. Also have Miner-All on order. Was going to start doing this routine once he was settled a bit and was eating normally.
Watering - big dripper, lots of misting, and a humidifier by the cage with a towel draped over. Eventually going to get a mistking.
Fecal Description - separate droppings at first, brown and white, now just scant white droppings- it's been a few days.
History - unknown prior to my receiving. chameleon came from florida.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - I started the guy in a screen cage (18X18X36) but moved him to a 16 gallon babybin after a day (sweater box) because he seemed so overwhelmed in the big cage and I thought he'd be able to find food easier but yesterday I've moved him back into the screen enclosure because humidity seemed better there.
Lighting - 5.0 reptisun tube, a 40w and a 60w in a Zoo Med combo fixture- right now I only keep the 5.0 and 40w turned on. I turn on the 60 if extra heat is needed to maintain the temp. 12 hours on/12 off. (8A-8P)
Temperature: 70-85 at the hottest point. Overnight drops to 60-65 as we are having unseasonably bad weather right now. I have a digital therm/hygrometer with a probe for testing temps.
Humidity - 40-60%-- this has been a big struggle to maintain. constant misting and humidifier-- we've even draped a towel over the enclosure to capture the humidifier steam, which is on the floor.
Plants - A few umbrella plants, some fake vines, and a few extra plastic plants for more places to hide.
Placement - Located in a (no traffic, faces an empty yard) window- not near fans or high traffic-- no other animals or people other than my husband and I. Top of cage is about 5 feet off the floor. TOp of the cage is covered in a towel for now so the little guy can't really see us and to maintain humidity.
Location - Milwaukee, WI

Current Problem - I got my chameleon last thursday. I did months of research to make sure I was prepared and I've kept reptiles for years including some very finicky aquatic turtle species that are also UVB/supplement fussy so I felt like I was ready to take on a chameleon. The first night I got him, he ate and drank a little, but the next morning and from then on, he just sat under his basking light with his eyes closed. At first he seemed to have issues with his eyes, rubbing them a lot, bubbling them up, but after that he just seems lethargic. He seems to only "wake up" if bothered in some way- usually via misting, but then he just turns very dark again. he has ignored all food and is very skinny-- today in desperation I smeared bug paste (a small small pinch of herptivite, some reptiworms and crickets mashed up into a paste) on his mouth and he seemed to eat that a little bit but then just goes back to sleep, dark, tail curled up, eyes closed. He has done this since the day I got him.

I understand that there is an adjustment period when an animal is moved to a new location, and I've tried to leave him be as much as possible, but I don't think guys this little can make it very long without food. He seemed undersized.

I've spoken on the phone with the breeder and he agrees there was most likely a problem before I got him most likely and has offered a refund/replacement but in the meantime, I want to make sure I'm doing whatever I can do to keep this guy going-- the breeder said he gives him a 50/50 chance of recovery.

It's frustrating because I didn't want to fail from day one, but it feels like that's what happened. Could I have screwed something up so quickly?

Should I move him back to the smaller enclosure?


Here are a bunch of pix:

adolescent sized enclosure:

Baby bin enclosure (somewhat makeshift as I didn't realize he'd be as small as he was):

Here he is minutes out of the box:

morning of day 1, better color, but eyes closed. In the baby bin:

This was later in day 1: dark, eyes closed:

He's been drinking pretty well at least-- I put him in this cup at one point to help him catch fruit flies, which he ate a couple of only once, but that was 5 days ago.

What do you guys think based on how he looks? Think he will make it? What can I do differently?

 

[carol5208]

Are the crickets pinheads? You say small, but he is very tinly and maybe the crickets are too big for him. Also I would try maybe a 20 watt bulb in the big cage or no basking bulb in that bin except the UVB. If he is not drinking, you can try an eye dropper and drop some water in front of him or a little on his nose to try and get him to drink..

 

[Ekaj13]

He is very small. Most breeders don't release their chameleons for sale until 3 months because some young chameleons just don't make it. Your care looks spot on.

 

[Jcokenr]

Are the crickets pinheads? You say small, but he is very tinly and maybe the crickets are too big for him. Also I would try maybe a 20 watt bulb in the big cage or no basking bulb in that bin except the UVB. If he is not drinking, you can try an eye dropper and drop some water in front of him or a little on his nose to try and get him to drink..

The crickets are as tiny as I can find around-- I do have some crickets currently breeding for him that should hopefully hatch in the next few days to a week (I'm new at breeding crickets as I've never needed them this tiny before), but in the meantime, I'm buying the tiniest one from the 3 live feed suppliers in Milwaukee and picking out the tiniest ones by hand to offer him. They are maybe 1/16."

He is drinking fine, but only when he wakes up. I still offer him a small syringe with water just to make sure he is getting enough.

oh, and thank you Carol for the advice on the lights! (and for the fast reply!) when he was in the babybin, I only turned on the 5.0 as it seemed to get too warm in there otherwise-- I moved the 40 watt bulb outside and had it shining in from about 12 inches away just to keep it in the 70s. Now he's back in the big screen so I'll go with a 20w.

 

[Carlton]

The crickets are as tiny as I can find around-- I do have some crickets currently breeding for him that should hopefully hatch in the next few days to a week (I'm new at breeding crickets as I've never needed them this tiny before), but in the meantime, I'm buying the tiniest one from the 3 live feed suppliers in Milwaukee and picking out the tiniest ones by hand to offer him. They are maybe 1/16."

He is drinking fine, but only when he wakes up. I still offer him a small syringe with water just to make sure he is getting enough.

oh, and thank you Carol for the advice on the lights! (and for the fast reply!) when he was in the babybin, I only turned on the 5.0 as it seemed to get too warm in there otherwise-- I moved the 40 watt bulb outside and had it shining in from about 12 inches away just to keep it in the 70s. Now he's back in the big screen so I'll go with a 20w.

I wonder if he's shut down because he simply has run out of energy (lack of food for too long) at this point. As he's trying to drink, I wonder if giving him some Pedialyte or one of the herp feeding substitutes in a dropper might get him going again? A few calories and sugars to give him some energy? He is very very tiny and probably has no reserves. There may well be some metabolic problem going on that you don't have any control over.

 

[carol5208]

Good luck with the little dude. I hope things turn around. It sure seems like you have all your bases covered. I was thinking the same thing about him being too small to be sold but we will not ask the name of the breeder. Just wondering was it a forum sponsor or a member who sold him to you though?

 

[ataraxia]

it looks like your doing everything right. heres some suggestions,

lighting: he should have changed by now and usually a hour or two difference usually doesnt make a difference. Un this case, i would ask the breeder when he turns on his lights and off. then corrispond this with his local time not yours.

heat: i would keep the little guy high 80's for basking and low 70's ambient.

humidity: your mistings will be sufficient. it is ok if it fluxuates alot. you dont live in a arrid region of the country. so your local humidity will help you. that is unless you have a dehumidifier in the room. make sure his cage is drying out between sessions.

cage/tote: place as much foliage in the tote as possible. we need to get him feeling as secure as he can get. place the tote where he cant see you walking by and peeping in on him (preferably high in the room). limit your interaction with him. i know he is new and fragile and AWESOME but he may be a shy one.

food: only offer him feeders no bigger than the distance between his eyes. i usually take the back legs off crickets. this makes them super slow and they cant JUMP!! pinch the back legs at the "knee" with your finger nail and it will fall off.

ultimately i would suggest you taking him to a local vet for them to show you how to syringe feed. at that point you can provide him nourishment till he gets on his feet.

 

[PrettyInInk87]

There is no way you could have done something wrong for him to become this ill in only 6 days unless it was something that was in his feeders that did it but with your care, doesn't seem likely at all. He looks SO tiny and don't know why the breeder would sell him that way. It makes me sad to see the poor little thing this way. Hope he makes it and everything works out... You got plenty of good information and advice. Good luck and keep us updated!

 

[veiled]

is it just me or does that hood look huge for that cage and really too big for the baby cage. it you use it for the baby cage i would suspend it higher. maybe the light is too bright for his eyes. my baby did that too for like a week and we adjusted the light to see if it was hurting his eyes. well it did the trick. just trying to think of something to help you. maybe lower branches down away from the light or suspend it.????

 

[Jcokenr]

Thanks everyone. Great advice here! So I think back in the baby bin with a lot more foliage and tiny crickets/fruit flies? the fruit flies seem to keep drowning in humidity puddles making it difficult to constantly clean out-- I'm trying to find a way to disturb him the least.
The hood is too large for the bin because I wasn't expecting he'd be as tiny as he is and so it was my scrambling to put something more suitable together-- I will try to suspend it higher.

 

[Ekaj13]

is it just me or does that hood look huge for that cage and really too big for the baby cage. it you use it for the baby cage i would suspend it higher. maybe the light is too bright for his eyes. my baby did that too for like a week and we adjusted the light to see if it was hurting his eyes. well it did the trick. just trying to think of something to help you. maybe lower branches down away from the light or suspend it.????

I doubt it's the lighting. It's no where near as powerful as sunlight.

 

[jannb]

Sometimes the UVB light (especially if it's a new bulb) will bother their eyes. Turn the light off for a couple of days. If your weather is wam enought the very best thing you could do for this little one it to put him in a screen enclosure and give him natural UV as much as possible (all day).

 

[Jcokenr]

Sometimes the UVB light (especially if it's a new bulb) will bother their eyes. Turn the light off for a couple of days. If your weather is wam enought the very best thing you could do for this little one it to put him in a screen enclosure and give him natural UV as much as possible (all day).

Yeah- not warm enough here yet. It's been snowing/dark all week. Stupid April in Wisconsin...

[edit] I had planned to get a cham near the end of April because normally it's reasonably warm, but this past week has thrown us a curve ball...

 

[veiled]

i wish you the best. i know you are doing everything you can. its so frustrating.