D3 through the diet only?

[Bush baby]

Along with keeping Chameleons, i also keep turtles; have so for 20+ years.

In all that time, i have rarely exposed my turtles to sunlight or provided UV lighting in the tanks; ever. Thus, all their D3 requirements are obtained solely through their diet. I feed my turtles a variety of food, but commercial pellets makes up the bulk of them, and all of them have D3 listed as an added ingredient.

Just out of curiosity, i was wondering if the same principle would apply to chameleon care. We supplement with D3 as a safety net for the UV bulbs (and those that don't take their chams outside enough). However, is it not plausible that all of a chameleons D3 requirements could be met solely through it's diet..?

 

[zlew]

its not just the vitamins they need. They can't absorb the supplements without the UV.

 

[kinyonga]

Sorry zlew but that's not correct. UVB allows them to produce D3 to use/absorb the calcium in the chameleon's system but if you give them D3 from supplements it is ready to go to use/absorb the calcium. The problem with supplementing is that we don't know how much they actually need.

 

[pigglett79]

you can look up various studies conducted regarding supplements and UVb. This is one that I like they test groups with variations of lights and supplements.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/140/11/1923.full

Here is one regarding red ear slider turtles and UV lighting. I always used UV lighting with my turtles.

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.67.12.2046

Personally I do not use D3 supplements, but I do use plain calcium on all feeders with a poor calcium to phosphorus ratio. I give a multivitamin twice a month and gutload a wide variety of feeders very well. I also use T5HO UVb lights and check the strength with a UV meter. And in addition I get my boys outside at least 3 hours per day 5 days a week.

In my opinion D3 supplements may not be necessary, but the UVb lighting or sunshine absolutely is necessary.

And I agree with above, a major issue with D3 in diet is that we do not know the exact requirement for the animal and both overdose and under dose can have major implications.

 

[Bush baby]

I generally don't give my Chams any D3 during the months when i take them outside routinely.

I guess since there is no commercial food for chameleons, you can't regulate how much D3 they're receiving, whereas with Turtles, the amount of D3 present in their commercial pellets has been calculated, so that they're getting the required amount and don't require UV.

Here is one regarding red ear slider turtles and UV lighting. I always used UV lighting with my turtles.

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.67.12.2046

Thanks

Thing is, the study doesn't state (or take into account) what the turtles were fed. If their diet consisted of foods that was fortified with D3, like commercial pellets are, then the results of the blood tests could have been different.

 

[Mike Fisher]

I've never used UVB bulbs other than one small fixture that LYR sent me for evaluation.

All my animals get their D3 solely from diet/supplements. I've never had a single case of MBD. The shells of all eggs produced have been full thickness.

I do formulate and mill my own supplements though.

 

[kinyonga]

Mike Fisher...Do your chameleon's get sunlight?

 

[Bush baby]

I've never used UVB bulbs other than one small fixture that LYR sent me for evaluation.

All my animals get their D3 solely from diet/supplements. I've never had a single case of MBD. The shells of all eggs produced have been full thickness.

I do formulate and mill my own supplements though.

Interesting. And makes perfect sense, as i theorized, as i've done for many years with Turtles.

 

[Lazy Boy]

My question is why? Why not use a UV bulb? Are they to expensive or cost to much for you to buy every 6m or 1y? Are you to lazy to change out the bulb every 6m-1y? Its not like its a big saving at all so why?

 

[leedragon]

actually this is an interesting thing, I know Bjorn tuvesson here in sweden changed uv light tubes for d3 supplementation for his panther chameleons, and many of the chronic diseases they got from time to time disappeared, I wonder if somehow this could apply to other species as well.

 

[nick barta]

I've never used UVB bulbs other than one small fixture that LYR sent me for evaluation.

All my animals get their D3 solely from diet/supplements. I've never had a single case of MBD. The shells of all eggs produced have been full thickness.

I do formulate and mill my own supplements though.

"Fisher's Chameleon Supplements"
I would buy from that company….

Nick

 

[nick barta]

My question is why? Why not use a UV bulb? Are they to expensive or cost to much for you to buy every 6m or 1y? Are you to lazy to change out the bulb every 6m-1y? Its not like its a big saving at all so why?

I don't think anyone would call Mike "lazy" in his husbandry, he is known for meticulous detail.
Tone is important to keep communications clear.

CHEERS!

Nick

 

[MelissaB]

My question is why? Why not use a UV bulb? Are they to expensive or cost to much for you to buy every 6m or 1y? Are you to lazy to change out the bulb every 6m-1y? Its not like its a big saving at all so why?

Well, the way I see it, if he's having success doing it his way why would he change it? If it's not broke don't fix it. Just like in most things, there's more than one way to accomplish the same goal. I wouldn't call him lazy or cheap because he uses a different method. Also, if he has multiple setups, especially in a breeding type arrangement, it can get quite costly to buy a lot of fixtures and bulbs.

 

[junglefries]

My question is why? Why not use a UV bulb? Are they to expensive or cost to much for you to buy every 6m or 1y? Are you to lazy to change out the bulb every 6m-1y? Its not like its a big saving at all so why?

Yeah, I have to agree with Nick B too. I was a little perplexed at Mike at first, then after a couple pms and reading a lot of his posts, I came to trust his opinion. He is diving into the genius pool of mixing nutrients. If it works for him, why fix? Us normal people use the UVB because we don't understand the combinations and makeup of the needed supplements. He gets it. It is termed 'work smarter, not harder'.

 

[Lazy Boy]

OK let me start by saying and I should have said this in my post. My comment is more in general and not firing at Mike. I use a UV light because I am trying to mimic nature. Really I use 3 different lights to get as much spectrum as I can get and I know I'm still far off from natural light but that's where I believe supplements come into play. If anything I want to get away from supplements. NO SUPPLEMENT is better then the real deal. So your going to get organic foods to feed your bugs then cover them in a bunch of man made supplements that most aren't even formulated for chameleons? I just don't understand why introduce even more to not use a UV light. Mike I'm sorry if that was misunderstood.

 

[junglefries]

Sorry Lazy Boy, after rereading my post, I came off harsh. That is not my normal approach. Didn't mean to scold, just making others aware, that sometimes a radical approach can work. You just need to know the ins and outs.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Mike Fisher...Do your chameleon's get sunlight?

No. They are in a basement.

 

[Mike Fisher]

My question is why? Why not use a UV bulb? Are they to expensive or cost to much for you to buy every 6m or 1y? Are you to lazy to change out the bulb every 6m-1y? Its not like its a big saving at all so why?

Yes, it is a big savings when you have a lot of fixtures. It would cost me thousands of dollars a year when I already have a system that works for me.

Sorry it took me a few days to see your reply, I've been too lazy to log on.

 

[Mike Fisher]

"Fisher's Chameleon Supplements"
I would buy from that company….

Nick

Thanks Nick, don't think I haven't considered it.

Formulating and milling your own supplements is not the lazy man's way out either, trust me on that. The people doing that I can count on one hand. It is hard core and you have to be meticulous in your weighing and have a very good scale.

I already have the equipment from formulating rocket propellants otherwise the start up cost would have been huge.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Well, the way I see it, if he's having success doing it his way why would he change it? If it's not broke don't fix it.

Thanks Melissa, that's pretty much it.