Choice between Europe or Asia bred

[Motherlode Chameleon]

If you had a choice between an Asian or European captive bred chameleon which would you buy?

I would probably choose European bred since Europe is proactive and is putting the most effort back to wild land conservation in Madagascar.

 

[ciafardo 4]

What are you sayin??????????????????????? hahahahaha

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I'm saying if your going to buy a CITES paper work Chameleon which operation you choose to buy from and endorse is important. Since Europe is actively trying to protect Madagascars wild lands supporting some of their breeding operations by buying from their breeders may add more fuel to consevation of the species in the wild. I'm unaware of any conservation coming from Asia and would not mind hearing whats going on from Asian point of view as far as giving back to Madagascar in the way of wild lands consevation.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I consider large breeding opperations (Asia /Europe) as stewards of their own industry (consevation is a major consideration) and to have large protected amount of these species in the wild is part of getting the job done for their industry.

 

[SSimsswiSS]

I really don't think the end buyer has a clue where, how, and by what means, the animal they just bought where obtained. A whole lota gray in that picture.
All comes down to what you want to believe your told, without facts.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Being conscience and aware of these details can evolve the industry and proactively improve the conservation of wild Madagascar (such as breeders that act like greater stewards of their own industry).

 

[eisentrauti]

What Chameleons would you buy from Asia ??? Just believe me that those protection stuff for Madagascar is just forced by f#+king politicans. What's the sense of stop the import when other countries like the USA could import much more ???

 

[casperpetersen]

I would buy Chamaeleo zeylanicus!!!

 

[SliK JiM]

I'd go European as the chameleon wouldn't have to be transported as far (for me anyway!). But, personally, I will only ever buy from serious breeders I know here in the UK, because if they don't have the species I'm looking for, they'll be able to get me a better quality one than I'd be able to find myself. Not just in terms of the 'quality' of the chameleon, but how it was bred, reared and transported!

 

[Kent67]

Just a thought....if conservation is the goal, maybe we shouldn't buy animals that have to be smuggled out of Madagascar to the breeders in Asia and Europe in the first place? Just a thought....

 

[merumontanus]

Just a thought....if conservation is the goal, maybe we shouldn't buy animals that have to be smuggled out of Madagascar to the breeders in Asia and Europe in the first place? Just a thought....

Imagine that...

There isn't a thing anyone can do to ensure the survival of species without placing a big emphasis on habitat conservation. On the other hand, to present an argument in favor of purchasing protected species (that have not been allowed to be exported legally out of their country of origin for a decade) in Europe over Asia shows a basic lack of understanding of the intrinsic corruptive nature of bureaucratic international systems such as CITES.

In a nutshell, animals that are exported out of Madagascar illegally can be taken through more lenient (and corrupted) systems in Asia, where they are re-labeled as "legally-obtained" (claiming acquisition before the ban was implemented or as "captive-bred"), and once CITES in Indonesia or Japan places the seal of approval on the animals, the true origin disappears as CITES Europe or U.S.A. is rarely going to question CITES Japan or Indonesia. This is not necessarily the fault of CITES Asia, as each country differs in their ability to dedicate resources to these issues. All a "breeder" (smuggler) in Asia has to do is show "proof" or somehow convince the more limited and compromised CITES authority in Indonesia (in contrast to the more resourceful CITES North America or Europe) that the animals were legally-obtained, resulting in the purchase of an animal with "legitimate" CITES documentation by someone in Europe or the Americas with the best intention in mind.

Nonetheless, to justify the purchase of Calumma species in Europe rather than Indonesia for the sake of conservation is like justifying the importation of any other critically-endangered species because one hopes to save the species by introducing them back into the wild in the future. It's not that simple.

Finally, to be clear, I'm not condemning people's decision to purchase Calumma species-- we all have blood on our hands, whether we are private keepers or zoological institutions, and I don't see much of a difference between the over collection of prohibited perarmata and brevicaudatus (mislabeled by CITES as kerstenii)-- all I wish is for us to realize that our keeping these animals is largely self-serving and that (with the exception of some institutions and individuals), our captive-breeding programs will do little to nothing to ensure their survival in the wild.


Cheers,

Fabián

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I'm of the opinion that wild caught chameleons should only be made available to breeders (recognized breeding operations, through permits), since wild caught chameleons are not good to work with and do not make good pets. However if Calumna species are being exported to Asian and European breeders legaly or illegaly their should be some money that goes back to conservation in Madagascar. Importation of these chameleons is a grey area however if they are all taxed on legal (animals with paper work) and illegal animals money goes back to conservation regardless which is essential to conservation. Smuggling is never going to be stopped 100% it can be reduced, which it has been here in the States, Asia and Europe I could not accurately say.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Without preserved wild lands for chameleons (chameleons obtained with cites permits for breeders), is like opening up a buisness with out access to wholesalers. The industry does not make sense. We are best off just watching video and photos of chameleons.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

When the ban was established I was surprised that Culumna Brevicornus was not an exportable chameleon. Since they are from my understanding inhabitants of secondary or degraded forests and their habitat is still plentiful.