Ch = ??

[clarkrw3]

I have been struggling with this for a while. What does CH actually mean for all furcifer pardalis? Yes, I know it means Captive Hatched and that it means the eggs came from a wild or unknown (farm or wild) sire. But what does it mean to us? It is a pretty well known truth that female locale is difficult if not impossible to tell by looking at the animal. So, what does this mean when we get female WC animals in that lay eggs? These animals usually come in with a locale attached to them otherwise they are almost unsellable, but where does this label come from? The importer? The man/woman that was paid a dollar a day to collect them? The broker once received? Are we sure of what we are being told? I have heard it all before, I can trust my broker, my importer, my exporter etc. But, can we trust the whole chain of custody? Are we sure it is what is on that locale label? So, when do we know what that female was? When we get her? When we have CB offspring? When we have mature CH offspring?

I bring this up because much of the DRAMA around the furcifer pardalis species has to do with locale, and specifically with he said she said about what a animal is or isn't. Why are we so quick to label an animal? It is what it is, and what it looks like, and no amount of labeling in something else will make it that. I think we need a new way of doing things. Something that is more honest. Why don't we call all CH panthers, CH furcifer pardalis and label once we know what it is? Why don't we subscribe to demanding a high standard of breeder ethics? This drama and infighting isn't helpful or healthy. It most certainly isn't helping further the species, locale, hobby. It's a real shame to see.

I would LOVE for this to be a frank conversation about this topic! Please be honest and respectful of those that post before you. This isn't to discuss any specific animal or breeder but rather to discuss how, as a community, we should handle these types of issues.

 

[cricketkilla]

I agree there needs to be a new name, ch is deceitful due to the inability to properly identify WC females consistently. I also think they shouldn't be marketed as one certain locale/color morph, due to the fact that just like all females look alike to us, the same is true to chameleons from different locales. It's no secret that locales overlap each other in Madagascar and there are natural locale crosses. I believe that males aren't worried about the purity of their color morph, I think their focus is to just pass on their genetics to maintain their bloodline. Just my two cents.

 

[cricketkilla]

They should be called a "Brown Bag Special"! Haha

 

[clarkrw3]

I agree there needs to be a new name, ch is deceitful due to the inability to properly identify WC females consistently. I also think they shouldn't be marketed as one certain locale/color morph, due to the fact that just like all females look alike to us, the same is true to chameleons from different locales. It's no secret that locales overlap each other in Madagascar and there are natural locale crosses. I believe that males aren't worried about the purity of their color morph, I think their focus is to just pass on their genetics to maintain their bloodline. Just my two cents.

You are correct to say that there is wild overlap at least with mainland locales, but due to geographical features these areas have been set on a course of differentiation which is why we have locales at all. So, while there are undoubtedly wild crossing this is very limited otherwise no locale distinction would be possible.

 

[cricketkilla]

You are correct to say that there is wild overlap at least with mainland locales, but due to geographical features these areas have been set on a course of differentiation which is why we have locales at all. So, while there are undoubtedly wild crossing this is very limited otherwise no locale distinction would be possible.

Exactly, Im on my iPad and didn't feel like going deep into it haha! Great thread btw, about time someone brought this up!

 

[Kent67]

As a commercial breeder we don't sell babies from unproven wc females until they have attained almost full color. Enough to be certain of what they are, anyway. My 21 years of working with wc pardalis has taught me there's no such thing as a guaranteed locale. Nothing has changed during that time. Breeders need to be honest with themselves, too. No matter how much you like your importer/broker, whatever, theres a long chain of custody from the wild locales to our cages and a long LONG history of mistakes and unlabeled females. As Jim F. has said many times, "it is what it looks like." Trying to convince everyone that a clutch or bloodline is something it doesn't look like is a waste of time and energy, in other words.

Speaking of labels, several of the big importers NEVER get locale data with their imports and assign them once received. Even when there are multiple locales of males in the same shipment. Makes it pretty difficult for us!

 

[DanSB]

My take away here is that locale information is not trustworthy at best and due to natural genetic variation most if not all captive locales are a best guess based on color and morphological features?

If that is true would it be more honest to say you are purchasing a Panther with Faly coloration rather than that you are buying a Faly?

I know how import export works and I know it is nearly impossible to keep serialized high dollar electronics straight through an international supply chain. If a chameleon's source can be kept straight from collection to end customer delivery I have a job for the person overseeing this.

 

[clarkrw3]

As a commercial breeder we don't sell babies from unproven wc females until they have attained almost full color. Enough to be certain of what they are, anyway. My 21 years of working with wc pardalis has taught me there's no such thing as a guaranteed locale. Nothing has changed during that time. Breeders need to be honest with themselves, too. No matter how much you like your importer/broker, whatever, theres a long chain of custody from the wild locales to our cages and a long LONG history of mistakes and unlabeled females. As Jim F. has said many times, "it is what it looks like." Trying to convince everyone that a clutch or bloodline is something it doesn't look like is a waste of time and energy, in other words.

Speaking of labels, several of the big importers NEVER get locale data with their imports and assign them once received. Even when there are multiple locales of males in the same shipment. Makes it pretty difficult for us!

I highlighted a few things I thought very important in your post Kent hope you don't mind. I agree 100%, and I feel your long history of experience speaks volumes on this. I think that when we say this is a CH X, Y or Z we are doing a huge injustice to not only the animals hatching but the breeder to him/her self. We try to cram these animals into a locale that we predetermined them to be and then sell them as such. What this does is taint these animals forever. Where as we may have some great new blood for a locale that would really help the gene pool for future breeding we dilute the gene pool of another locale all because we predetermine these animals as eggs, when it is impossible to do so. Then comes the drama about what the animal is because people can't be honest about what they see.

My take away here is that locale information is not trustworthy at best and due to natural genetic variation most if not all captive locales are a best guess based on color and morphological features?

If that is true would it be more honest to say you are purchasing a Panther with Faly coloration rather than that you are buying a Faly?

I know how import export works and I know it is nearly impossible to keep serialized high dollar electronics straight through an international supply chain. If a chameleon's source can be kept straight from collection to end customer delivery I have a job for the person overseeing this.

I think you are on to something, but I am very positive it would never happen. People want a definitive X not an Xish something or other

And I agree this idea that everything is in what the importer/exporter says it is in completely untrue. For instance I have heard recently well this whole import came directly from this Nosy (Island) and never went to another island or the mainland of Madi so I must be true that it is a pure import. Problem is there isn't an airport capable of supporting an aircraft of that size on the smaller Nosy's they have to at least make it onto Nosy Be to get to a decent sized airport and at that point...you don't think they are going to throw in a couple if they haven't met a quota for the shipment? I have heard it said that Nosy Be Pardalis are like pigeons on the island

 

[imcurt]

This is why there need to be CCC "Chameleon Cage Club" Structured like the AKC Where you would have to apply for a breeders lic. They could charge for membership to pay there exspences.Qualified breeder could register there clutches.. The obvious: registered chameleons would sell for more than unregistered ones. Just like puppies......

 

[okiroo]

This is why there need to be CCC "Chameleon Cage Club" Structured like the AKC Where you would have to apply for a breeders lic. They could charge for membership to pay there exspences.Qualified breeder could register there clutches.. The obvious: registered chameleons would sell for more than unregistered ones. Just like puppies......

i agree. mabey even set up a dna thing and get papers with parents grandparents ect ect. this would help from inbreeding.

 

[pssh]

What I take from CH panthers is that if you buy a baby, take the locale info with a grain of salt. You could be getting what the mother came in as, but you cant be sure until it becomes mostly/fully colored. I think if someone was to sell a CH baby, it would be best to advertise this at the time of purchase for anyone who doesnt know that CH babies may not end up being what the mother came in as. There are no guarantees. I see CH as a gamble.