Calling all gut-load experts. I think I'm on to something...

frankpayne32 said:
To me, that looks pretty damn good, and all ingredients are organic to boot. It even smells good! But I'm no expert and I wanted to get the opinions and views from the experienced members on this forum. The only downside is the cost is quite pricey, approximately $10.50 (still cheaper than fresh produce) for three pounds. I've gotten around this problem by keeping a tub for the insects that I will be feeding from separate from my breeders. The non-feeder insects still get rabbit food, just a non-organic, albeit still low protein, less expensive food.

I know some people will want to automatically say "just use fresh vegetables, they're best" but I don't really think that's fair without some real data to back it up. Just look at the great advancements in MRE's for geckos (ie. Repashy diets) that have been shown to work just as well as fresh fruits and insects. Just some food for thought. I'd be happy to hear everyone's insights. Thanks for looking!

Frank
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10.50 for 3 lbs is expensive? That's $3.50 a lb and you can't get any type of gutload nor make any kind of decent gutload for $3.50 a lb.
I agree with what everyone previously has said about the amount of Vit A & D - unless you personally test each bag to ensure their measurements are accurate (because we know manufacturers NEVER lie) - they are basing their numbers on weighted average, not actual individual pellet measurement - meaning some pellets have 2-3x as much of a particular ingriedient versus the next pellet, but in the end they all average out to those figures.

Sandrachameleon is the go to guru here, and though I don't think she would ever say it- but she is the SHIZZNITZ when it comes to all things gutload.... How many other people do you know who can give you the nutritional value of an Oak Leaf??? Use the knowledge that others make available, don't try and reinvent the wheel.
 
azgnoinc said:
10.50 for 3 lbs is expensive? That's $3.50 a lb and you can't get any type of gutload nor make any kind of decent gutload for $3.50 a lb.
I agree with what everyone previously has said about the amount of Vit A & D - unless you personally test each bag to ensure their measurements are accurate (because we know manufacturers NEVER lie) - they are basing their numbers on weighted average, not actual individual pellet measurement - meaning some pellets have 2-3x as much of a particular ingriedient versus the next pellet, but in the end they all average out to those figures.

Sandrachameleon is the go to guru here, and though I don't think she would ever say it- but she is the SHIZZNITZ when it comes to all things gutload.... How many other people do you know who can give you the nutritional value of an Oak Leaf??? Use the knowledge that others make available, don't try and reinvent the wheel.
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It is expensive if you have many thousands of roaches to feed. Maybe money isn't a concern for you, it is for me. That is a crass statement.

I also agree that the Vit A and Vit D is definitely a concern, as I've already said earlier in the thread. I'm glad I had others look closely at it to get me to think about it. I think that if it wasn't for the Vit A and D supplements added to the feed it would be a nutritious and convenient dry diet for feeder insects.

There's nothing wrong with trying new things and trying to find different ways to do things... I agree that Sandra's gutload recipes are great. However, it does entail a lot of time and expense. I priced out what it would take to buy the ingredients for her various gutload recipes and it would cost well over $100 to make a batch. Granted it would last me about two months but that is still cost prohibitive for me. If it's not for you that's good for you. I will still probably end up going that route because it does seem the best. I'll just need to budget for it in the future.

I'm here to learn, and as a teacher I can tell you that learning is not about blindly accepting what others tell you. I've been keeping chameleonsUnhelpful and crass posts like yours are the reason I so rarely post on forums. You did not post anything that hasn't already been gone over in this thread and were just negative and condescending.
 
2 months? I buy large amounts of organic indredients (mostly pre powdered) for a gutload I make that has about 40 or more different (good!) things in it. It costs quite a bit, but I can use it for well over a year. You have to buy things in lbs or more and search for the cheapest places to get them (also consider shipping cost.) I feed thousands and thousands of my bugs (including breeder bugs) on this stuff and it still lasts me forever. I end up selling some to other members sometimes because I have so much.

As for vit. D, it doesnt actually have that much in it. Repcal has something like 400,000 iu/kg and even minerall (which has very little, and can be used fairly regularly) has 4,400 iu/kg.

I have so many bugs that I end up feeding all my veggies/fruits within a week of buying them, but i made gutload smoothie cubes before I had a ton of bugs to feed. My suggestion is to use the pellet food, some extra dry gutload as well, and make a smoothie from fresh fruits/veggies and then freeze it in ice cube trays. Then you can just pop out a cube or two when you need some and put the rest back.
 
frankpayne32 said:
I agree that Sandra's gutload recipes are great. However, it does entail a lot of time and expense. I priced out what it would take to buy the ingredients for her various gutload recipes and it would cost well over $100 to make a batch.
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wow! You must shop at the most expensive places ever known to man! LOL
seriously though, I make even my most elaborate gutloads (including spirulina, bee pollen, kelp, seeds, brewers yeast, etc) for about $10 a pound.


if you are trying to save money, did you know you only have to gutload well those prey items that you will be feeding off to the chameleon within the next week or so? just feeding bugs to keep them alive is (or can be) different from and cheaper than gutloading. Give your main colonies less expensive / cheap but still healthy food like alfalfa, carrot, squash, seeds, and some of your rabbit pellts. You probably eat some fruit and veggies every day, so save a little of that for your bugs (the ends or peels off of carrots, a few leaves of romaine or mustard greens or arugula from your salads, the pulp leftover from making fresh OJ, or a slice of the whole orange, some papaya, the piece of apple fruit you didn't eat because of the bruise/brown, some basil, a steamed yam, etc).
If you talk to the person who works in the produce department of your local grocery store, he or she might be convinced to GIVE YOU FOR FREE the bruised and damaged fruits and veggies.

And then just put your extra gutloading effort and care into those bugs you are going to feed off to the chameleon in the next week or two.
 
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pssh said:
2 months? I buy large amounts of organic indredients (mostly pre powdered) for a gutload I make that has about 40 or more different (good!) things in it. It costs quite a bit, but I can use it for well over a year. You have to buy things in lbs or more and search for the cheapest places to get them (also consider shipping cost.) I feed thousands and thousands of my bugs (including breeder bugs) on this stuff and it still lasts me forever. I end up selling some to other members sometimes because I have so much.

As for vit. D, it doesnt actually have that much in it. Repcal has something like 400,000 iu/kg and even minerall (which has very little, and can be used fairly regularly) has 4,400 iu/kg.

I have so many bugs that I end up feeding all my veggies/fruits within a week of buying them, but i made gutload smoothie cubes before I had a ton of bugs to feed. My suggestion is to use the pellet food, some extra dry gutload as well, and make a smoothie from fresh fruits/veggies and then freeze it in ice cube trays. Then you can just pop out a cube or two when you need some and put the rest back.
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Thanks for the helpful reply. :) I am more concerned with the vit A levels than the vit D. That seems to me to be too high?

sandrachameleon said:
wow! You must shop at the most expensive places ever known to man! LOL I make even my most elaborate gutloads (including spirulina, bee pollen, kelp, seeds, brewers yeast, etc) for about $10 a pound.

if you are trying to save money, did you know you only have to gutload well those prey items that you will be feeding off to the chameleon within the next week or so? just feeding bugs to keep them alive is (or can be) different from and cheaper than gutloading. Give your main colonies less expensive / cheap but still healthy food like alfalfa, carrot, squash, seeds, and some of your rabbit pellts. And just put your extra gutloading effort and care into those bugs you are going to feed off to the chameleon in the next week or two.
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I don't think so. The prices are from amazon.com which I found to be MUCH cheaper than the health food place by me. My calculated price per pound for what I could find would be about $11.50/lb which you're right isn't THAT expensive but the upfront cost would be about $100 which is hard to swallow. I do agree that it is probably the best way to go. I already do as you suggest and feed my "breeder" insects a cheaper food and feed my "feeder" group the better stuff. Great advice. I really do appreciate it. I've been keeping reptiles for almost two decades now and chameleons for almost that long and the longer I'm in it and the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.
 
Well, repashy calcium pluss has 200,000 iu/lb and even the LoD version has 80,000 iu/lb. some people use them daily without problems (I dont because i feel the levels are too high still.) So the pellets have quite a bit less. I guess it would be up to you and what you feel is best for your particular situation and the animals you have.

On a side note, i feel that raising the insects on a high quality diet is best. It doesnt have to be quite as high quality ad gutload, but I think of it like if a person was eating fast food their whole life and then started to eat healthy for a week, they wouldnt be anywhere near as healthy as if they had just never really eaten the fast food in the first place.
 
pssh said:
Well, repashy calcium pluss has 200,000 iu/lb and even the LoD version has 80,000 iu/lb. some people use them daily without problems (I dont because i feel the levels are too high still.) So the pellets have quite a bit less. I guess it would be up to you and what you feel is best for your particular situation and the animals you have.

On a side note, i feel that raising the insects on a high quality diet is best. It doesnt have to be quite as high quality ad gutload, but I think of it like if a person was eating fast food their whole life and then started to eat healthy for a week, they wouldnt be anywhere near as healthy as if they had just never really eaten the fast food in the first place.
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I actually went to your website after your first reply. That is a logical stance. I was looking at your gutload online but didn't see a link for it. PM if you have any.
 
frankpayne32 said:
Thanks for the helpful reply. :) I am more concerned with the vit A levels than the vit D. That seems to me to be too high?



I don't think so. The prices are from amazon.com which I found to be MUCH cheaper than the health food place by me. My calculated price per pound for what I could find would be about $11.50/lb which you're right isn't THAT expensive but the upfront cost would be about $100 which is hard to swallow. I do agree that it is probably the best way to go. I already do as you suggest and feed my "breeder" insects a cheaper food and feed my "feeder" group the better stuff. Great advice. I really do appreciate it. I've been keeping reptiles for almost two decades now and chameleons for almost that long and the longer I'm in it and the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.
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I spend about $70 including shipping for all high grade dry ingredients that produces enough dry gutload for about 6 months. Dont knwo how many pounds it produces, but it last me that long. Keep in mind however, that I do use veggies and fruits as well, so that makes it last longer.

Here is where I get some of the more uncommon ingredients, with alfalfa (cheap from feed store) being the bulk filler.

Again, buy what you need from here in pounds, mix up what you need for a month at a time, put the rest in the freezer.

http://www.barryfarm.com/
 
Saldarya said:
I spend about $70 including shipping for all high grade dry ingredients that produces enough dry gutload for about 6 months. Dont knwo how many pounds it produces, but it last me that long. Keep in mind however, that I do use veggies and fruits as well, so that makes it last longer.

Here is where I get some of the more uncommon ingredients, with alfalfa (cheap from feed store) being the bulk filler.

Again, buy what you need from here in pounds, mix up what you need for a month at a time, put the rest in the freezer.

http://www.barryfarm.com/
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Thanks for the link.
 
My crickets

CLP said:
Unless you are putting in way more food than they need, which you don't want to do with fresh food as it will go moldy quickly, you should be able to see the evidence -i.e. a half eaten leaf of lettuce, and carrot with holes eaten into it, etc. No?
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The only thing I can see where they have actually eaten it is zucchinni. I replace the plate of food every 2 days so things don't get a chance to mold. I must be doing something right because they are growing and not too many die, oh and they get bigger.:eek: So.....guess I'm doing it right. Pablo is getting bigger too! I just ordered him some hornworms. Hope he likes those. The shipping was almost as much as the worms LOL!
 
pssh said:
Well, repashy calcium pluss has 200,000 iu/lb and even the LoD version has 80,000 iu/lb. some people use them daily without problems (I dont because i feel the levels are too high still.)
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I too think its too much for daily use.
especially if you are also gutloading with items that have significant levels of fat soluable vits
On a side note, i feel that raising the insects on a high quality diet is best.
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I agree. but i think the nutrients still in the guts, the most recently eaten gutload, is the most important
 
frankpayne32 said:
The ingredients look great on the DinoFuel. However, a protein level of over 25% is too high to be used as a gut-load, especially for roaches which are already high in protein. IMO that would be a good recipe for gout if that was used as an exclusive gut-load.

Do you use this as a gut-load for your feeders that you feed your chameleons? What feeders do you use for your chameleons? If it's crickets it may not be a problem but I think the protein level would be much too high if roaches were primarily used. Your product does seem to be only plant protein sources so it may not be a problem. But, I am leery about using a gut-load that is high in protein (over 15%) when feeding roaches, which is my primary insect feeder.

http://www.ivanalfonso.com/2011/08/gout-and-roaches/

http://www.store.repashy.com/can-feeder-insect-diets-contribute-to-gout-in-reptiles.html
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I use DinoFuel for my Dubia colonies as well and I do not have any chameleons with gout. The proteins in DinoFuel are 100% plant based and are complete proteins. Much different then proteins derived from animal proteins. I feed DinoFuel almost every day to all my reptiles. I gutload bugs with it and inject it into mice before feeding snakes. I also soak my reef fishes food in DinoFuel.

Also, keep in mind diversity in prey is essential. Your animal will greatly benefit from a diverse diet that doesn't consist strictly of dubia. You can offer a variety, like silkworms, hornworms, supeworms, blue bottleflies, and crickets.
 
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tkilgour said:
...The proteins in DinoFuel are 100% plant based and are complete proteins. Much different then proteins derived from animal proteins. ...
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can you explain what you mean?

To my understanding, Animal source protein is complete, in terms of amino acid. But so are some plant based sources, and in correct combinations any plant materials certainly can provide this.

The different amino acid profiles effect the rates at which the absorbed amino acids are put to use / are available for our own protein synthesizing reactions (in people - I assume it is similar in lizards), but this is largely irrelevant if you are using a good variety of plant materials, or especially if using plant materials with a good aa score.

I know animal protein can be extremely high in cholesterol and fat, particularly saturated fat, whereas plant based protein generally is not. I see that as a disadvantage of animal source vs plant.

Animal proteins also tend to have greater concentration of sulphur containing amino acids, resulting in a little lower physiological pH that must be corrected with buffers like calcium - which I think is a disadvantage.
Ive also read that processing animal source protein can be harder on the kidneys.

futher, I'd say its also important to pay attention to what comes with the protein - vitamins, fat, minerals

is this what you were meaning or ???
 
sandrachameleon said:
can you explain what you mean?

To my understanding, Animal source protein is complete, in terms of amino acid. But so are some plant based sources, and in correct combinations any plant materials certainly can provide this.

The different amino acid profiles effect the rates at which the absorbed amino acids are put to use / are available for our own protein synthesizing reactions (in people - I assume it is similar in lizards), but this is largely irrelevant if you are using a good variety of plant materials, or especially if using plant materials with a good aa score.

I know animal protein can be extremely high in cholesterol and fat, particularly saturated fat, whereas plant based protein generally is not. I see that as a disadvantage of animal source vs plant.

Animal proteins also tend to have greater concentration of sulphur containing amino acids, resulting in a little lower physiological pH that must be corrected with buffers like calcium - which I think is a disadvantage.
Ive also read that processing animal source protein can be harder on the kidneys.

futher, I'd say its also important to pay attention to what comes with the protein - vitamins, fat, minerals

is this what you were meaning or ???
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You nailed it exactly! :) I just didn't elaborate, but thank you for doing so.
 
sandrachameleon said:
it depends which "problematic" issue you are wary of.

are you only concerned or primarily concerned about gout?
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That is the only specific problem I am aware of in insectivorous reptiles. Are there other known problems associated with a high protein diet being fed to prey insects?
 
see post 34
and think about fat soluble vitamins (too much vitamin A for example)

Anyways, gutloads of various greens /veggies are generally going to have about 13% protein (a safe level). Gutloads with a higher amount of protein (often these include animal protein sources like dog food) can be problematic, especially if you are using a fair number of cockroaches in your feeder prey mix.

High levels of protein, especially combined with dehydration (which is really quite very common - people just don't realize it) , impact kidney function (to filter Uric Acid from the blood). When Uric Acid levels build up, crystals get deposited - often showing as swollen limbs and joints

You may find this interesting: http://www.ivanalfonso.com/2011/08/gout-and-roaches/
 
see post 34
and think about fat soluble vitamins (too much vitamin A for example)

So you are saying that it shouldn't be a concern if there is a high protein diet (>20%) if it is made up of varied plant sources that represent complete proteins?

Anyways, gutloads of various greens /veggies are generally going to have about 13% protein (a safe level). Gutloads with a higher amount of protein (often these include animal protein sources like dog food) can be problematic, especially if you are using a fair number of cockroaches in your feeder prey mix.

I understand that. But if we have a gutload, like Dinofuel, that is in excess of 20% protein, but from plant sources is that a problem?

High levels of protein, especially combined with dehydration (which is really quite very common - people just don't realize it) , impact kidney function (to filter Uric Acid from the blood). When Uric Acid levels build up, crystals get deposited - often showing as swollen limbs and joints

This is my primary concern. I wanted to know if there were any others you knew of that I should be concerned with besides gout.

You may find this interesting: http://www.ivanalfonso.com/2011/08/gout-and-roaches/

I actually cited the same article earlier in this thread as evidence for my concern back in post 13.
 
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