Calling all gut-load experts. I think I'm on to something...

[frankpayne32]

This is for the gutloading experts that I know are around here. I've been trying to come up with a solution for gut-loading my feeder insects that meets several criteria. 1. It must provide high quality nutrition to the feeders that can be passed on to my collection. 2. That the feed is convenient to store, acquire, and feed. 3. That the feed is relatively economical to use.

I know that most people recommend using fresh vegetables. For me that has never been a viable solution. It's expensive and it spoils quickly. I, and I think many other, frankly don't have the time to expend that much effort on our feeders. I think it's great of those that do but I think there has to be a way to provide what our animals need without that level of time expended. So I started thinking about what novel sources of dried foods could be used to feed our insects. Dog and cat food was of course out because of the high protein. Even chick laying mash which was big in the zoo world for feeders has been shown to be too high in protein. Insects in the wild primarily eat vegetation, so what domestic animal is vegetarian? Rabbits. I started using pelleted rabbit food over a year ago. I soon found that all rabbit foods are not created equal and that some have inferior ingredients and are too high in protein. What I have since settled on is Oxbow Bene Terra Organic Rabbit Diet. Here is the ingredient list and nutritional analysis:

Ingredients: Organic Grass Hay, Organic Canola Meal, Organic Wheat Straw, Organic Sunflower Meal, Organic Barley, Organic Flaxseed, Sodium Bentonite, Limestone, Sea Salt, L-Ascorbyl-2 Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Organic Dandelion Leaf, Organic Ground Rosemary, Inulin, Organic Cranberry, Organic Blueberry, Dried Yucca schidigera, Yeast Culture (dehydrated), Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin, Copper Sulfate, Selenium Yeast, Vitamin A Supplement, Folic Acid, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Copper Proteinate, Riboflavin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Magnesium Sulfate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Cobalt Carbonate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Iodate, and Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide.

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein 12.00% min
Crude Fat 2.00% min
Crude Fiber 23.00% min
Crude Fiber 25.00% max
Moisture 12.00% max

Vitamins/Minerals
Calcium 0.60% min Calcium 0.90% min
Phosphorus 0.30% max Vitamin A 19,000 IU/kg
Vitamin D 900 IU/kg Vitamin E 190 IU/kg
Copper 25 IU/kg

To me, that looks pretty damn good, and all ingredients are organic to boot. It even smells good! But I'm no expert and I wanted to get the opinions and views from the experienced members on this forum. The only downside is the cost is quite pricey, approximately $10.50 (still cheaper than fresh produce) for three pounds. I've gotten around this problem by keeping a tub for the insects that I will be feeding from separate from my breeders. The non-feeder insects still get rabbit food, just a non-organic, albeit still low protein, less expensive food.

I know some people will want to automatically say "just use fresh vegetables, they're best" but I don't really think that's fair without some real data to back it up. Just look at the great advancements in MRE's for geckos (ie. Repashy diets) that have been shown to work just as well as fresh fruits and insects. Just some food for thought. I'd be happy to hear everyone's insights. Thanks for looking!

Frank

 

[Saldarya]

My only concern with these prepared foods, regardless of the quality, is that you cannot control the amount of vitamins, especially Vit D & A, that are in the mix.

It is complete conjecture ony part, and some of this will depend on the species of Cham you are trying to feed, but for species that are sensitive to vitamin overdose, POSSIBLY leading to edema. I just stick with foods and gutloads where I can account for what I am feeding my Chams ultimately.

Just a thought.

 

[frankpayne32]

My only concern with these prepared foods, regardless of the quality, is that you cannot control the amount of vitamins, especially Vit D & A, that are in the mix.

It is complete conjecture ony part, and some of this will depend on the species of Cham you are trying to feed, but for species that are sensitive to vitamin overdose, POSSIBLY leading to edema. I just stick with foods and gutloads where I can account for what I am feeding my Chams ultimately.

Just a thought.

Thanks for the reply! A valid concern, but did you see the vitamin analysis at the bottom of the ingredient list?

Vitamins/Minerals
Calcium 0.60% min Calcium 0.90% min
Phosphorus 0.30% max Vitamin A 19,000 IU/kg
Vitamin D 900 IU/kg Vitamin E 190 IU/kg
Copper 25 IU/kg

That combined with the complete ingredient list makes it pretty clear what's being fed. I think even more so than with a random assortment of fresh veggies. I wonder how many people that are feeding their insects fresh foods are using organics.

 

[pigglett79]

My only concern with these prepared foods, regardless of the quality, is that you cannot control the amount of vitamins, especially Vit D & A, that are in the mix.

It is complete conjecture ony part, and some of this will depend on the species of Cham you are trying to feed, but for species that are sensitive to vitamin overdose, POSSIBLY leading to edema. I just stick with foods and gutloads where I can account for what I am feeding my Chams ultimately.

Just a thought.

This is my concern as well. I prefer to use my own ingredients as I want more control over these vitamins. Using gut load and vitamin supplements you have to be careful not to overdo fat soluble vitamins. It is very easy to do. I am fighting edema in my chameleon currently and it is just so hard to correct the issue once it occurs. And again if you have species that are more sensitive to vitamin overdose that could also be a concern. I would just use your best judgment and adjust other routes of these vitamins when you are using a gut load that already contains them.

 

[Mike Fisher]

I would not feel comfortable using it.

That's got a huge amount of vitamin A and more vitamin D than any powdered supplement on the market. I believe Miner-all with D3 has 400 IU/kg and it is the highest powder in D3 IIRC, and should only be fed twice a month at most.

I keep montane chameleons and do not use any supplemental A, preferring to gut load my feeders with natural vitamin A derived through mostly beta carotene from carrots etc. Montanes are very sensitive to A in particular and also excess D3.

If you are looking for a solution for a dry gut load that is affordable check out my blog. It makes a good staple base you can add your fresh stuff to, or if you juice every day, just set aside a bit of pulp for your feeders. For this to work though you actually have to juice the right stuff.

Sandrachameleon is the gut load expert here, check out her blog. Good stuff!

 

[lpatroske]

New to all of this

Since we are talking about gut loading - just wondering: I am using mostly fruits and vegtables to feed the crickets, but for the most part I just see them hanging out together in the egg carton they came in. I tried shaking them out of it so they would see/smell the food offered, but I have no way of knowing what they ate. Just trying to learn as much as I can so Pablo (2 month old vielded) stays healthy.

 

[frankpayne32]

I would not feel comfortable using it.

That's got a huge amount of vitamin A and more vitamin D than any powdered supplement on the market. I believe Miner-all with D3 has 400 IU/kg and it is the highest powder in D3 IIRC, and should only be fed twice a month at most.

I keep montane chameleons and do not use any supplemental A, preferring to gut load my feeders with natural vitamin A derived through mostly beta carotene from carrots etc. Montanes are very sensitive to A in particular and also excess D3.

If you are looking for a solution for a dry gut load that is affordable check out my blog. It makes a good staple base you can add your fresh stuff to, or if you juice every day, just set aside a bit of pulp for your feeders. For this to work though you actually have to juice the right stuff.

Sandrachameleon is the gut load expert here, check out her blog. Good stuff!

Thanks for the info on the vitamin levels. I will definitely check out your blog. I have read sandras blog completely as well. Her gutload scheme is a bit expensive/time consuming for me. Loads of great info though.

 

[CLP]

Since we are talking about gut loading - just wondering: I am using mostly fruits and vegtables to feed the crickets, but for the most part I just see them hanging out together in the egg carton they came in. I tried shaking them out of it so they would see/smell the food offered, but I have no way of knowing what they ate. Just trying to learn as much as I can so Pablo (2 month old vielded) stays healthy.

Unless you are putting in way more food than they need, which you don't want to do with fresh food as it will go moldy quickly, you should be able to see the evidence -i.e. a half eaten leaf of lettuce, and carrot with holes eaten into it, etc. No?

 

[CLP]

Thanks for the info on the vitamin levels. I will definitely check out your blog. I have read sandras blog completely as well. Her gutload scheme is a bit expensive/time consuming for me. Loads of great info though.

I finally tried sandra's gutload about 6 weeks ago. I was reluctant to do it because of the time thing, but it turned out to be not that expensive nor time consuming. I just made a big batch of it, kept a few week's worth in the fridge and the rest in the freezer. So, half an hour of my time one Sunday afternoon, and I made myself enough gutload for about 4 months! I just add some raw fruit or veg every couple of days for moisture, and that's it. Worth a try IMO.

 

[tkilgour]

T I wonder how many people that are feeding their insects fresh foods are using organics.

I only use organics and my Dinofuel Line is 100% Organic.

 

[frankpayne32]

I would not feel comfortable using it.

That's got a huge amount of vitamin A and more vitamin D than any powdered supplement on the market. I believe Miner-all with D3 has 400 IU/kg and it is the highest powder in D3 IIRC, and should only be fed twice a month at most.

I keep montane chameleons and do not use any supplemental A, preferring to gut load my feeders with natural vitamin A derived through mostly beta carotene from carrots etc. Montanes are very sensitive to A in particular and also excess D3.

If you are looking for a solution for a dry gut load that is affordable check out my blog. It makes a good staple base you can add your fresh stuff to, or if you juice every day, just set aside a bit of pulp for your feeders. For this to work though you actually have to juice the right stuff.

Sandrachameleon is the gut load expert here, check out her blog. Good stuff!

Do you think that the total amount of vitamins will be passed on to the chameleon? Or that some, or much, of it will be metabolized by the insects? I'm not completely sure if it's a 1:1 ratio of what's being passed on.

 

[frankpayne32]

I finally tried sandra's gutload about 6 weeks ago. I was reluctant to do it because of the time thing, but it turned out to be not that expensive nor time consuming. I just made a big batch of it, kept a few week's worth in the fridge and the rest in the freezer. So, half an hour of my time one Sunday afternoon, and I made myself enough gutload for about 4 months! I just add some raw fruit or veg every couple of days for moisture, and that's it. Worth a try IMO.

That's good to know. I will check out her recipe again and price to see what it would cost to make.

 

[frankpayne32]

I only use organics and my Dinofuel Line is 100% Organic.

The ingredients look great on the DinoFuel. However, a protein level of over 25% is too high to be used as a gut-load, especially for roaches which are already high in protein. IMO that would be a good recipe for gout if that was used as an exclusive gut-load.

Do you use this as a gut-load for your feeders that you feed your chameleons? What feeders do you use for your chameleons? If it's crickets it may not be a problem but I think the protein level would be much too high if roaches were primarily used. Your product does seem to be only plant protein sources so it may not be a problem. But, I am leery about using a gut-load that is high in protein (over 15%) when feeding roaches, which is my primary insect feeder.

http://www.ivanalfonso.com/2011/08/gout-and-roaches/

http://www.store.repashy.com/can-feeder-insect-diets-contribute-to-gout-in-reptiles.html

 

[sandrachameleon]

One reason to use vegetables and fruits in your gutload is to ensure you have well hydrated prey, which in turn helps hydrate your chameleon.

rabbit pellets might be good as part of a dry gutload mix, but I sure wouldn't use them exclusively.

 

[frankpayne32]

One reason to use vegetables and fruits in your gutload is to ensure you have well hydrated prey, which in turn helps hydrate your chameleon.

rabbit pellets might be good as part of a dry gutload mix, but I sure wouldn't use them exclusively.

I use the hydrated "water crystals" as a water source for my feeders so hydration is not an issue.

Why wouldn't you use them exclusively, or at least primarily? The only problem I've seen so far is the perhaps too high vitamin levels. I asked this to someone else but perhaps you will know since I know you've done so much research into this area: do you think the insects metabolize some of the vitamins ingested or do you think the full measure of vitamins is passed on from food -> feeders -> chameleon? Thanks for reading and posting back!

 

[Mike Fisher]

Do you think that the total amount of vitamins will be passed on to the chameleon? Or that some, or much, of it will be metabolized by the insects? I'm not completely sure if it's a 1:1 ratio of what's being passed on.

Good thinking....I doubt any one has done an official study on that, so no way to know for sure. We just do our best with what we currently know.

 

[Saldarya]

Some of these Vitamins, especially the ones of interest to us, are fat soluble so regardless of how the food itself is metabolized, they can, and will build up in the fat of the feeder which acts as a storage area.

I'd suggest you do some searches on here surrounding Edema. In many of those thread the idea of gutload does come up as a potential reason for concern based off of this very thing we are discussing.

The rabbit food has high amounts of Vit A, insects eat it, stores in fats, gets passed on to chams in high dosage, possible causing edema.

I understand it is conjecture, but personally feel I fell victim to this in the past and as a result, now only gutload what I can account for.

 

[lancaster0861]

I like to make a nice wet-gutload as well as a dry gutload using sandrachams...blog. It lets me know exactly what and in what quantity i am offering to my feeders. I have found it pretty inexpensive especially when made in bulk. Also, ive found that it is much more convienant and have had zero problems with things spoil. As long as you freeze the extra and only keep usuable amounts n the fridge you will be ok. I think people get into trouble when they try and keep fresh vegies in the fridge to cut up daily for gutload. If you do that you will quickly spoil the vegies. I find if you use a good sealed container in the freezer it will last for months!

 

[frankpayne32]

Good thinking....I doubt any one has done an official study on that, so no way to know for sure. We just do our best with what we currently know.

Yeah I figured, just wondering if anyone had read a study along those lines. I really don't think that all of those vitamins are directly passed on as if it were a dusting powder. But that is just a hunch.

 

[frankpayne32]

Some of these Vitamins, especially the ones of interest to us, are fat soluble so regardless of how the food itself is metabolized, they can, and will build up in the fat of the feeder which acts as a storage area.

I'd suggest you do some searches on here surrounding Edema. In many of those thread the idea of gutload does come up as a potential reason for concern based off of this very thing we are discussing.

The rabbit food has high amounts of Vit A, insects eat it, stores in fats, gets passed on to chams in high dosage, possible causing edema.

I understand it is conjecture, but personally feel I fell victim to this in the past and as a result, now only gutload what I can account for.

That makes sense. I am definitely not saying one way or the other. Just something I'm considering.