Calcium intake

[jajeanpierre]

and the mutilation risks

Back that statement up with facts. Show me the references in veterinary literature that says it is a risk.

 

[jajeanpierre]

@jajeanpierre another benefit to keeping a little fresh cricket food in the cage is to keep the crickets gut loaded for the chams benefit.

Agreed.

 

[jajeanpierre]

How is the part on parasites. I have a microscope coming and want to start doing some of my own fecal floats and I would like a good resource that I can trust on parasites.

I'm sure it is good. I've just started looking at that section as I did buy a microscope plus the stuff to prepare the slides.

The trouble with a lay person using a veterinary text book is we have no sense of perspective and judgement. Finding evidence of parasites is not necessarily a reason to treat.

My personal philosophy is that a chameleon should keep itself healthy and if it isn't healthy, something is wrong with my husbandry.

I love the book. There is a lot I don't understand because it is written for veterinarians who have lots of years of schooling in medicine before they open that book and I do not. I intend to understand a lot more of the stuff I have trouble with, but I will start with the areas I have the most concern: reproductive issues, parasites and kidney failure.

 

[Virgil1972]

The trouble with a lay person using a veterinary text book is we have no sense of perspective and judgement. Finding evidence of parasites is not necessarily a reason to treat.

I read on a bearded dragon website, so take with a grain of salt, that when looking at a fecal float if you can count the number of parasites then the animal is fine but if there is so many parasites that they cannot be counted then treatment should be considered.

 

[WAMBO]

Please read my quote from Mader's veterinary text book above. In his book--a highly respected veterinary text book--the risks associated with feeding invertebrates was the chitin (the exoskeleton), toxicity of fire flies, the questionable safety of feeding Eastern tent caterpillars and invertebrates exposed to pesticides and herbicides. Nowhere is there reference to crickets causing injury to reptiles. If it was a concern, I think it would be listed under the section "Risks" re feeding invertebrates (P. 265 if you want to look it up).

I agree with you. I read it at Screameleons site and watched some youtube vid from a reptile/pet store say it. I think that one person's experience is anecdotal, but no one at this entire site has experienced it, which is a large sample of many years. Also, the crickets roaming in my cage hide from my panther, and would logically be more interested in eating the plants, instead of my cham. But here is the first place that I read it under "What should I do if I go on vacation": http://screameleons.com/feeding-panther-chameleons/
I'll search for that vid so that we can ridicule it.

 

[Bush baby]

@jajeanpierre another benefit to keeping a little fresh cricket food in the cage is to keep the crickets gut loaded for the chams benefit.

That's the NUMBER ONE reason i do it.

 

[WAMBO]

Agreed.

I found the video from LLL Reptile, and he stated that "prey will become the predator...and could injure" the cham at around 6:30 to 7 minutes:

 

[Bush baby]

He's simply regurgitating what others have said. There are lots of sites that same the same thing, but the 'source and evidence' for these mutilation claims are ambiguous.

In the 20 years of keeping chams i have never seen crickets nibble on chams as they sleep. I've seen crickets crawl on top of sleeping chams, in which the cham simply brushes the cricket away.

 

[WAMBO]

He's simply regurgitating what others have said. There are lots of sites that same the same thing, but the 'source and evidence' for these mutilation claims are ambiguous.

In the 20 years of keeping chams i have never seen crickets nibble on chams as they sleep. I've seen crickets crawl on top of sleeping chams, in which the cham simply brushes the cricket away.

Yep. This is how urban legends and myths perpetuate. Now with the internet with youtube and social media, it can only get worse.

 

[Virgil1972]

Yep. This is how urban legends and myths perpetuate. Now with the internet with youtube and social media, it can only get worse.

No if its on the internet it has to be true. They cant put bad information on there. LOL

 

[JGuinan007]

Back that statement up with facts. Show me the references in veterinary literature that says it is a risk.

Do a search on this forum there are plenty of threads about how crickets have bitten chameleons. I don't pretend to be a vet and can't quote any veterinary literature that specifically says it's a risk, but I won't risk it happening to my chameleon you can if you want makes no difference to me.

 

[JGuinan007]

Here is a quote from Mader's veterinary text book, REPTILE MEDICINE AND SURGERY 2nd Edition, in the chapter Nutrition (Page 266) :
"Invertebrates may be offered as free-roaming or confined to a bowl or cup within the habitat. The author prefers the former technique because hunting provides behavioral enrichment and stimulates cognitive function. [Emphasis mine.] However, food intake is more difficult to quantify when prey are free roaming, and prey may escape the habitat. Reptiles have to be taught to bowl feed, and some never feed from containers. Underfeeding can be the result of owners bowl feeding to prevent escaped prey."

Nowhere do I see any reference to worry about crickets eating chameleon's eyes out or otherwise injuring them.

I keep many chameleons and usually have many cages of babies. I feed a lot of commercial crickets as a convenient staple feeder and I do not cup feed so my cages often have a lot of crickets in them. I have never in my life found any injuries to a chameleon that has crickets in their cage. No eyes eaten out. No wounds. None of the wounds that the animals came with from capture and import have ever gotten larger as one would expect if lose crickets in their cages were feasting on chameleons at night. I normally do no put any cricket food in the cages even though there might be a week's worth of crickets hidden in the plants, plants that are not particularly appetizing to crickets like a ficus. The one exception is if I put a particularly large amount of largish crickets in a baby cage, I will throw some shredded leafy veggies in "just in case" a hungry cricket might bite my little babies. As I do it, I realize I am only putting that cricket food in because of posts such as you have made, not from any evidence I have seen in my own keeping of a lot of chameleons.

You have read horror stories of chameleon being mutilated by crickets? Rubbish. You've read regurgitated old wives tales. Repeat it enough and and most people believe it to be fact.

The enrichment value the animal gets from hunting its own food is tremendous. The only reason I would ever cup feed is to be able to put fewer crickets in the cage and save money.

Wait your book didn't say it could happen?