Big Boi Enclosure Progress - Looking for Feedback

[bbyoda]

I'm far enough along where feedback would be super helpful in getting this enclosure ready for Yoda. He's getting another fecal test in early August, so that's the tentative move-in timing. My questions for ya'll are in the sub-bullets.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Veiled male Chameleon named Yoda. Got him from FL Chams back in March. He's around 6-7 months old.
• Handling - I've been handling him daily to give him silvadene ointment for an early stage thermal burn. He doesn't like to be handled in general and is increasingly cage aggressive. Once he's reached adulthood I will try regaining his trust.
• Feeding - 8-12 feeders each morning. Surinam roaches, silkworms, and BSFL or flies as staples. Superworms as treats (2 worms 3x per week). Gutload is dandelion greens, kale, mustard greens, sweet potato, carrots, apples. And biodude's bug grub.
• Supplements- Repcal without D3 Sunday-Friday. On Saturdays I alternate between Repcal phosphorus free calcium with D3 and Herptivite.
  • My vet suggested removing Herptivite with beta carotene and switching to reptivite with D3 since it has preformed vitamin A. His care sheet suggests using the reptivite with D3 every 14 days. The way I'm understanding that is if I switch to that schedule, I would no longer use either my rep cal with D3 or herptivite. Just calcium no D3 every day except the two days a month I'd give the reptivite with D3. Would I need to modify anything else about my husbandry accordingly? The vet did suggest upping to T10 or 12% on my UVB light so I think that tracks.
• Watering- I've got a mist king that runs 3 minutes in the morning at 8am and 3 minutes at night at 6pm. I got a dual nozzle for the bigger enclosure for better coverage. I also think I'm ruining my current nozzle with tap water, despite dechlorinating it with reptisafe.
  • Is there a more optimal misting schedule? Open to hearing more about that, particularly given my drainage issues in the past and given the plants in my enclosure.
  • I love the opening for a dripper tube that dragonstrand builds in, but not sure if it's something I should try building out or installing, given my previous flooding issues. Any strong arguments for or against? My chameleon is otherwise hydrated. If I were to set up a dripper, I'd probably want to go the more complex route with a pump setup, so it can be automated.
• Fecal Description - Nice white urates. Poops look fine but vet recently tested and came back positive for coccidia. He's in a bare bones cage now to limit the potential for reinfection. I think I've seen sperm plugs in his poop as well.
• History - I've previously filled out the help form and have a thread about the coccidia as well.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type24" x 24" x 48" Dragonstrand screen cage. I'm very pleased with this decision so far!
  • For drainage I'm using the dragonstrand drainage tray and pvc floor. I've drilled holes in the PVC floor and hydroponics tray. I have a root pouch in the hydroponics tray too and a drainage layer with lava rocks in the root pouch. I also used a bunch of washed play sand in the soil mix (fox farms + ABG) so I'm feeling better about my drainage prospects overall. My small enclosure got flooded over the course of a few months, so trying to avoid that. In case anyone has additional drainage troubleshooting tips.
• Lighting- UVB is a reptisun 5.0. I got a longer length than my cage so I could run diagonally. I have a Sansi LED plant light and will have a Repitsun basking lamp.
  • At my last vet visit, the vet suggested getting an Arcadia 12%. I'm open to that but think I would need to make some adjustments to the rest of my husbandry accordingly. I think that would mean adjusting branches and potentially supplements. I'd love insights on that front. I don't have a solar meter and would prefer not to make that purchase. I do have UVB detecting cards to make sure that my lights are outputting UVB.
• Temperature- Right now it's 72 at bottom and 78 at the top, and I'm going to aim for a basking spot that is 85 degrees while he's a juvenile. I use a temp gun to measure and measure the basking spot by aiming the temp gun at Yoda's casque while he's basking. I had his basking spot too hot before (90 degrees) and was only measuring the branch itself, which I realize now contributed to his thermal burns.
  • If there are better ways to measure heat with a temp gun or ways to troubleshoot basking area to prevent burns, I'd love to know about them. I was using the hand test before as well but that didn't quite work.
• Humidity- Humidity is a bit of a struggle for me being in Florida and renting an older house. Humidity in the room ranges between 40-70%. I don't have accurate readings with my new enclosure yet but just put a fluker's hygrometer in there to start to get a read on it. Thankfully my new cage is a screen cage, whereas the current one is combo glass and screen (and is usually 60-80%).
  • I have a little computer fan on top sucking air out to increase air flow, and I'll move that to the big enclosure when Yoda moves in. Are there other things that I can be doing to reduce humidity if that is an issue for the new enclosure?
• Plants- Live plants include: ficus microcarpa, pothos, prayer plant, birds nest fern, creeping fig, and schefflera. I'm going to add a nepentheses ventricosa in there as well.
  • Plant people I would love your advice! I want to have plants at the top of the cage that trail down - like creeping fig and pothos, but those don't seem to be doing well. Maybe they're unhappy being so close to the plant light?
• Placement - The cage is located in a corner in my office. I work there M-F 9-5 and we keep the door closed at all times to keep out our cats. The vent is 6+ feet away. There is a fan in the center of the room on the ceiling which I keep running to keep me cooler and increase air flow. The cage is on a 2" high table.
• Location - Orlando, Florida.

 

[Beman]

Hi hun see my feedback in red bold.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Veiled male Chameleon named Yoda. Got him from FL Chams back in March. He's around 6-7 months old.
• Handling - I've been handling him daily to give him silvadene ointment for an early stage thermal burn. He doesn't like to be handled in general and is increasingly cage aggressive. Once he's reached adulthood I will try regaining his trust.
• Feeding - 8-12 feeders each morning. Surinam roaches, silkworms, and BSFL or flies as staples. Superworms as treats (2 worms 3x per week). Gutload is dandelion greens, kale, mustard greens, sweet potato, carrots, apples. And biodude's bug grub.
• Supplements- Repcal without D3 Sunday-Friday. On Saturdays I alternate between Repcal phosphorus free calcium with D3 and Herptivite.
  • My vet suggested removing Herptivite with beta carotene and switching to reptivite with D3 since it has preformed vitamin A. His care sheet suggests using the reptivite with D3 every 14 days. The way I'm understanding that is if I switch to that schedule, I would no longer use either my rep cal with D3 or herptivite. Just calcium no D3 every day except the two days a month I'd give the reptivite with D3. Would I need to modify anything else about my husbandry accordingly? The vet did suggest upping to T10 or 12% on my UVB light so I think that tracks. So with the vitamin schedule yes that is correct. You drop the calcium with D3 and the herptivite and add reptivite with D3. This is given 2 times a month every other week. Then all other feedings get calcium without D3. I do not use herptivite for that very reason.
• Watering- I've got a mist king that runs 3 minutes in the morning at 8am and 3 minutes at night at 6pm. I got a dual nozzle for the bigger enclosure for better coverage. I also think I'm ruining my current nozzle with tap water, despite dechlorinating it with reptisafe. Reptisafe will not help with the calcium build up from tap water. You want RO or distilled for anything that runs water like misting and fogger so as not to damage the equipment.
  • Is there a more optimal misting schedule? Open to hearing more about that, particularly given my drainage issues in the past and given the plants in my enclosure. I mist in correlation with my lighting. So all mistings are prior to basking kicking on and after basking kicks off. I run 2 prior and 2 after ranging in 2-3 minutes each.
  • I love the opening for a dripper tube that dragonstrand builds in, but not sure if it's something I should try building out or installing, given my previous flooding issues. Any strong arguments for or against? My chameleon is otherwise hydrated. If I were to set up a dripper, I'd probably want to go the more complex route with a pump setup, so it can be automated. I do not use a dripper any more. Between my misting and the fogging at night I have had no issue with dehydration utilizing these two hydration methods.
• Fecal Description - Nice white urates. Poops look fine but vet recently tested and came back positive for coccidia. He's in a bare bones cage now to limit the potential for reinfection. I think I've seen sperm plugs in his poop as well. Normal to see sperm plugs at his age.
• History - I've previously filled out the help form and have a thread about the coccidia as well.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type24" x 24" x 48" Dragonstrand screen cage. I'm very pleased with this decision so far!
  • For drainage I'm using the dragonstrand drainage tray and pvc floor. I've drilled holes in the PVC floor and hydroponics tray. I have a root pouch in the hydroponics tray too and a drainage layer with lava rocks in the root pouch. I also used a bunch of washed play sand in the soil mix (fox farms + ABG) so I'm feeling better about my drainage prospects overall. My small enclosure got flooded over the course of a few months, so trying to avoid that. In case anyone has additional drainage troubleshooting tips. Do you have a way for excess water to be pulled out of the drain pan? I use a wet vac for this.
• Lighting- UVB is a reptisun 5.0. I got a longer length than my cage so I could run diagonally. I have a Sansi LED plant light and will have a Repitsun basking lamp.
  • At my last vet visit, the vet suggested getting an Arcadia 12%. I'm open to that but think I would need to make some adjustments to the rest of my husbandry accordingly. I think that would mean adjusting branches and potentially supplements. I'd love insights on that front. I don't have a solar meter and would prefer not to make that purchase. I do have UVB detecting cards to make sure that my lights are outputting UVB. I would NOT go up to anything higher then a 5.0 or 6% if you have a T5HO fixture. It will produce much too high of a UVB level. You want basking 9 inches below to get approximately a 3 UVI. If you are running a T8 then that is a different situation. You have to go up to the stronger bulb to get the higher UVI level because T8's do not have the output that a T5 has. With a T8 basking has to be 5 inches below with a 12% bulb in a single bulb fixture to get a 3 UVI level. I prefer T5's specifically with Veileds due to their casque height. You can get them a bit farther away from the lights... Then it is not their casque getting over heated. Plus with the heat fixture you would have to raise this up quite a bit to ensure that you do not have a thermal burn risk.
• Temperature- Right now it's 72 at bottom and 78 at the top, and I'm going to aim for a basking spot that is 85 degrees while he's a juvenile. I use a temp gun to measure and measure the basking spot by aiming the temp gun at Yoda's casque while he's basking. I had his basking spot too hot before (90 degrees) and was only measuring the branch itself, which I realize now contributed to his thermal burns.
  • If there are better ways to measure heat with a temp gun or ways to troubleshoot basking area to prevent burns, I'd love to know about them. I was using the hand test before as well but that didn't quite work. Get a wired probe with temp gauge and tie it in with zip ties at the basking level to get an accurate temp at branch level. If it is showing 85 then it will be warmer where they rise up higher. I am paranoid about thermal burns so I have a full 12 inches between basking and the heat fixture. It is lifted 3 inches off the top of the cage and then 9 inches to basking because I use a T5HO and that is the appropriate distance for correct uvb.
• Humidity- Humidity is a bit of a struggle for me being in Florida and renting an older house. Humidity in the room ranges between 40-70%. I don't have accurate readings with my new enclosure yet but just put a fluker's hygrometer in there to start to get a read on it. Thankfully my new cage is a screen cage, whereas the current one is combo glass and screen (and is usually 60-80%).
  • I have a little computer fan on top sucking air out to increase air flow, and I'll move that to the big enclosure when Yoda moves in. Are there other things that I can be doing to reduce humidity if that is an issue for the new enclosure? If he is struggling with the humidity then you could get a dehumidifier for the room. up to 50% is really ok. If it spikes after mistings this is ok. Sometimes they have a hard time if the humidity level sits high all day. For example. Beman will Gape consistently if the dehumidifier is not on and it is over 60% during the day.
• Plants- Live plants include: ficus microcarpa, pothos, prayer plant, birds nest fern, creeping fig, and schefflera. I'm going to add a nepentheses ventricosa in there as well.
  • Plant people I would love your advice! I want to have plants at the top of the cage that trail down - like creeping fig and pothos, but those don't seem to be doing well. Maybe they're unhappy being so close to the plant light? I run T5HO 6400 or 6500 daylight bulbs in my enclosure. I have no hands on with the spot lighting.
• Placement - The cage is located in a corner in my office. I work there M-F 9-5 and we keep the door closed at all times to keep out our cats. The vent is 6+ feet away. There is a fan in the center of the room on the ceiling which I keep running to keep me cooler and increase air flow. The cage is on a 2" high table.
• Location - Orlando, Florida.

 

[bbyoda]

Thanks so much @Beman!

I have a quite a few follow-up questions for you (or anyone else who wants to give feedback!):

• Is purified water OK to use in misting systems? It looks like it's easy enough for me to get the Target brand, which says it's purified by reverse osmosis.
• Do you have a separate timer for your basking light? Can you share the brand you use? I'm using a power strip that has one timer so everything that's on the timer goes on and off at the same time.
• I was planning on using a turkey baster for excess water drainage to start, before purchasing a wet vac. Should I reconsider that? My partner loves all things Milwaukee - would this one work?
• Is your UVB light also elevated above your cage? Or is that just your basking light? Trying to understand if the UVB source needs to be 12" away as well, or if you meant that you elevate the basking lamp to create the 12" and keep 9" from UVB.
• Is there a wired temp probe you would recommend? There are tons of options on Amazon - thinking I should go for something that doesn't need a battery, like this one.
• It seems like if I'm struggling with humidity, and Yoda's hydrated, I probably don't need to fog - am I thinking about that the right way? It seems like you fog and use a dehumidifier, so not sure how to wrap my head around that.
• Is there a dehumidifier you'd recommend? Ways to maintain it to avoid mold buildup, etc? Seems like there are a ton of options out there, just not sure how to assess what's best for this use case.
• Can I use re-use water from the dehumidifier to water my plants, or in the misting system?
• Do you know any folks who use the spot light and light who'd be open to talking shop with me about plants?

And to confirm, my action items are:

• Use Reptivite with D3 two times per month and Repcal without D3 every other day. I started this today!
• Start using reverse osmosis or distilled water in my misting setup - I also started this today!
• Aim for 12" from basking branch to heat source - I did this today for both cages!
• Get a wired probe with a temp gauge to test out my basking spot more accurately.
• Get a dehumidifier - I left a hygrometer in the screen cage the past few days and the range has been 60-80%, so seems like it would be helpful to have and use.

 

[Beman]

Thanks so much @Beman!

I have a quite a few follow-up questions for you (or anyone else who wants to give feedback!):

• Is purified water OK to use in misting systems? It looks like it's easy enough for me to get the Target brand, which says it's purified by reverse osmosis. Should be fine.
• Do you have a separate timer for your basking light? Can you share the brand you use? I'm using a power strip that has one timer so everything that's on the timer goes on and off at the same time. Yes All my lights run on separate timers. I have basking kick on at 9am an hour and a half after my T5's start kicking on and then it kicks off at 3pm then my T5's kick off in sequence until the final one at 6:30pm. So I use these https://www.amazon.com/Woods-50029W...&keywords=woods+timers&qid=1595096299&sr=8-16 Note I do this following the naturalistic hydration method as well so my mistings happen prior to and after basking. I do not mist when my basking light is on due to increased RI risk.
• I was planning on using a turkey baster for excess water drainage to start, before purchasing a wet vac. Should I reconsider that? My partner loves all things Milwaukee - would this one work? Turkey baster will make you crazy. I too tried that in the beginning lol. That is expensive... I use this one. https://www.amazon.com/Vacmaster-Mo...words=Wet+dry+vac&qid=1595096444&s=hi&sr=1-28
• Is your UVB light also elevated above your cage? Or is that just your basking light? Trying to understand if the UVB source needs to be 12" away as well, or if you meant that you elevate the basking lamp to create the 12" and keep 9" from UVB. So I only have my basking that far. So I have a total of 9 inch drop to basking from the top screen. my UVB sits directly on the top. Then my basking is kicked up 3 inches above. I use this for that and I drilled two holes in the mounting plate to secure it to the frame. https://www.amazon.com/Exo-Terra-Ho...words=exo+terra+bracket&qid=1595096577&sr=8-1 Per distance on UVB my distance is based on my single fixture T5HO running a 6% UVB bulb.
• Is there a wired temp probe you would recommend? There are tons of options on Amazon - thinking I should go for something that doesn't need a battery, like this one. Sure you could do something like that. Just make sure it is water resistant. I have a herpstat that controls my basking temps... This has a probe then I run a secondary one as back up but my secondary is always off a few degrees. My herpstat probe is way more accurate.
• It seems like if I'm struggling with humidity, and Yoda's hydrated, I probably don't need to fog - am I thinking about that the right way? It seems like you fog and use a dehumidifier, so not sure how to wrap my head around that. LOL so fogging at night is part of the naturalistic hydration method. This podcast will help you understand that aspect. https://www.chameleonbreeder.com/podcast/ep-89-naturalistic-hydration-for-chameleons/ I run a dehumidifier because my male has never been able to deal with how high my house humidity is. Not everyone has to do this and some don't at all. I just happen to be a little cray cray when it comes to the specifics of what they need. I was always very stressed when I first started out about killing him. So I structured everything to be just "right"
• Is there a dehumidifier you'd recommend? Ways to maintain it to avoid mold buildup, etc? Seems like there are a ton of options out there, just not sure how to assess what's best for this use case. I bought this one in the 30 pint https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NRDBBH5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
• Can I use re-use water from the dehumidifier to water my plants, or in the misting system? Nope.... It pulls some nasty stuff out of the air. lol Maybe your house plants but I would not put it in the cage.
• Do you know any folks who use the spot light and light who'd be open to talking shop with me about plants? Off the top of my head no.... Hard to keep track of what everyone is using... Post a thread on it specifically and you will get feedback

And to confirm, my action items are:

• Use Reptivite with D3 two times per month and Repcal without D3 every other day. I started this today! Great and it is the every other day because that is the feeding schedule he is now on correct?
• Start using reverse osmosis or distilled water in my misting setup - I also started this today! wonderful!
• Aim for 12" from basking branch to heat source - I did this today for both cages! great
• Get a wired probe with a temp gauge to test out my basking spot more accurately. perfect
• Get a dehumidifier - I left a hygrometer in the screen cage the past few days and the range has been 60-80%, so seems like it would be helpful to have and use. Yeah you get high levels like I do... Beman will gape if the humidity is too high. So I get it down to 45% during the day. Not all have a hard time with it but like I said I was obsessive in making everything right.

Here are pics of my cages so you can see...

 

[bbyoda]

Thank you thank you ? This is the precise information I have been craving. I think I have tried reading on the specifics for naturalistic hydration and uvb on chameleon academy like 4 times now and my brain is just not retaining the information, so it's a good reminder that I can try listening to the podcast and see if that sinks in.

I am still feeding Yoda 8-12 feeders every day - I thought that was okay and that I'd start tapering down at 10 months til eventually I was doing 3-5 feeders every other day for adults.

But looking at the care sheet in the resources section I see the suggestion to feed 10-12 every other day now that he's 6 months old, then 7-10 every other day as an adult.

My vet's care sheet actually didn't include feeder amount/frequency on it and I forgot to ask him about that given all the other topics that came up. More reading and info there would be appreciated for sure!

 

[Beman]

Thank you thank you ? This is the precise information I have been craving. I think I have tried reading on the specifics for naturalistic hydration and uvb on chameleon academy like 4 times now and my brain is just not retaining the information, so it's a good reminder that I can try listening to the podcast and see if that sinks in.

I am still feeding Yoda 8-12 feeders every day - I thought that was okay and that I'd start tapering down at 10 months til eventually I was doing 3-5 feeders every other day for adults.

But looking at the care sheet in the resources section I see the suggestion to feed 10-12 every other day now that he's 6 months old, then 7-10 every other day as an adult.

My vet's care sheet actually didn't include feeder amount/frequency on it and I forgot to ask him about that given all the other topics that came up. More reading and info there would be appreciated for sure!

I would wait to taper him down until 9 months. Start slowly reducing until you get to 8 feeders each day now. Like taking one out a week. Kick him to every other day at nine months with 8 feeders then over the next 3 months get him down to the 3-5 feeders. At 12 months really watch his casque at that point because depending on what you feed 5 feeders can be too much and cause them to gain weight. He is still growing now.
So the repcal without D3 you want to use at every feeding unless it is the 2 times a month where he needs the reptivite.

 

[jamest0o0]

Thank you thank you ? This is the precise information I have been craving. I think I have tried reading on the specifics for naturalistic hydration and uvb on chameleon academy like 4 times now and my brain is just not retaining the information, so it's a good reminder that I can try listening to the podcast and see if that sinks in.

I am still feeding Yoda 8-12 feeders every day - I thought that was okay and that I'd start tapering down at 10 months til eventually I was doing 3-5 feeders every other day for adults.

But looking at the care sheet in the resources section I see the suggestion to feed 10-12 every other day now that he's 6 months old, then 7-10 every other day as an adult.

My vet's care sheet actually didn't include feeder amount/frequency on it and I forgot to ask him about that given all the other topics that came up. More reading and info there would be appreciated for sure!

Naturalistic hydration is just petr's way of feeling special. Hasn't shown to increase the lifespan of any animals(haha I said it!). It's not bad, but isn't the only way of doing things.

 

[Beman]

Naturalistic hydration is just petr's way of feeling special. Hasn't shown to increase the lifespan of any animals(haha I said it!). It's not bad, but isn't the only way of doing things.

That is just because you do not like it.... And not just Petr believes in this method... Don't hate.

 

[jamest0o0]

That is just because you do not like it.... And not just Petr believes in this method... Don't hate.

Where did I hate? I said it's not bad, but just not the only way of doing things. And not just me thinks there are other ways of doing things. Many here have kept chams for years without doing it. I'm just saying, don't stress it if there is an easier way to get your water. I thought these forums weren't about speaking in absolutes and being open to multiple ways of doing things?

 

[Beman]

Where did I hate? I said it's not bad, but just not the only way of doing things. And not just me thinks there are other ways of doing things. Many here have kept chams for years without doing it. I'm just saying, don't stress it if there is an easier way to get your water. I thought these forums weren't about speaking in absolutes and being open to multiple ways of doing things?

Ok your being snappy as heck today... Not sure what your issue is but I am going to step out of your way. Because honestly I can't handle anymore bs this week. Have a good day James.

 

[jamest0o0]

Ok your being snappy as heck today... Not sure what your issue is but I am going to step out of your way. Because honestly I can't handle anymore bs this week. Have a good day James.

Uh what?

 

[bbyoda]

I would like to understand the naturalistic hydration cycle principles better before I figure out how / what to implement for sure. Reading is never the same as doing. I feel like I'm learning all sorts of science thanks for chameleon husbandry. And I know an important part of all this is to also pay attention to the signs your chameleon is giving you, too.

 

[Beman]

I would like to understand the naturalistic hydration cycle principles better before I figure out how / what to implement for sure. Reading is never the same as doing. I feel like I'm learning all sorts of science thanks for chameleon husbandry. And I know an important part of all this is to also pay attention to the signs your chameleon is giving you, too.

Read everything you can. You will find there are multiple ways of doing things. Naturalistic hydration is just one way. What I liked about it was that in Yemen at night fog banks roll in so they sleep with a high humidity level. So it made sense to me to utilize this method. I also have found that Beman has never had an issue with hydration. I used to run a drip system during the day. I took that out 2 months ago. And he only has the fog at night and then I run 4 misting sessions a day. 2 prior to heat lamp kicking on and 2 after. But I rarely see him drink and my desk is right next to his cage. So IMO the fogging at night really does impact their hydration level.