(beginners please read!) please do not buy a veiled chameleon!

[Curlytails]

this may sound like the most BS anyone has ever heard but these animals have lost genetic variation and the gene pool is constantly shrinking. genetic deformities and illnesses are popping up everywhere. so please do not buy a veild. if you do please get one from a breeder that can show you the animals lines. i am personally experiencing the struggles that the animals go through. my lil guy Reggie constantly suffers due to the eye conditions and it is upsetting. please do not make the mistake i made. best of luck to you guys!
curly

 

[Arpretty]

Damn, and I’m sure a lot (if not nearly all) of this has to due with breeding practices and diminishing natural populations.

Makes me think of what’s happened to dogs (and horses)...

https://www.businessinsider.com/dog-breeds-100-years-breeding-evolution-science-2016-3

 

[nightanole]

So what are the opinions on jacksons then? 99.99999999% of them can be traced back to 2 dozen of them from the 1970s that were let loose in hawaii hawaii because they where in too bad of a shape to sell.

Then again after grooming dogs for 35 years, the schnauzers have really gone down hill in the last 15 years...

 

[Curlytails]

So what are the opinions on jacksons then? 99.99999999% of them can be traced back to 2 dozen of them from the 1970s that were let loose in hawaii hawaii because they where in too bad of a shape to sell.

Then again after grooming dogs for 35 years, the schnauzers have really gone down hill in the last 15 years...

yeah. i have no previous experience with all species but i understand what you mean. as you said, dogs have also changed drastically. just look at photos from the early 1900s and now. i guess you cant do anything but boycotting can help as less deformed animals will be bred.there will always be a market though... seeing Reggie suffer is very upsetting and i wouldnt want newbies to go through the same thing im going through at the moment

 

[NDO]

There are still some reputable breeders that distribute healthy and stable veileds. Just gotta find the right ones; I'm pretty sure FLChams have pretty good ones.

Where did you get yours if I may ask?

 

[Arpretty]

I actually have no idea where mine came from initially. His previous owners weren’t very interested in communicating with me..... just kind of wanted to do a hand off.

 

[Curlytails]

There are still some reputable breeders that distribute healthy and stable veileds. Just gotta find the right ones; I'm pretty sure FLChams have pretty good ones.

Where did you get yours if I may ask?

from a very reputable reptile store in the uk. check http://www.crystalpalacereptiles.com/index.php
no matter how hard you try to get healthy animals there will always be a problematic one

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

I have watched many "reputable" breeders that have been doing line breeding (inbreeding) of chameleons for many years insisting that line breeding does not cause any problems!

Big name brand pet stores selling chameleons that people "rescue" are nearly always, if not always products of these practices too!

I have personally always disagreed! I will never ever do inbreeding! Within the last few years I have seen buyers becoming serious about not buying inbred chameleons due to the multitude of health problems associated with doing so and due to the incidence of these problems dramatically increasing over the last 10 years!

I have warned people in private message about buying certain chameleons just to be called a liar! Haha, it has been exciting to see people becoming more aware and consumers insisting on buying healthy chameleons that are not inbreads!

O, how I love this new trend! Way to go people!!!!!

 

[Tucklander]

Don’t buy a vieled? Maybe be careful and buy a vieled after doing your research. I’m not being funny or snarky(honestly don’t mean or want to be) but do you think panthers keep getting more dramatic looking by coincidence (or inbreeding) .i mean let’s be real here..it’s about doing some research,something I made a big mistake on 1st go round... I didn’t do my due diligence first go round and ended up with a deathly ill, and very sad first Cham...I thought he was just lazy...not sick..my second Cham is likely 50% wild, b/c I know the practices of some “reputable breeders” (most certainly not all)...and have seen vieled chams with his bright colors come from the “transplanted wild” FL areas...in YouTube posts, left -right-sideways- those vieled are showing high yellows, varied blues and greens in the wild...they didn’t start that way...they were put out there to reproduce ... and my breeder admitted to wild caught lines, to add variety and color...and he’ll likely be hardier due to the fact that he’s more than likely not born from a 2nd tier relation...inbreeding ruins lots of animals...I appreciate the post though, made me think(and I know where you were going) ... I miss Harry this week...but my wifey has actually taken a liking to him while I’m in FL visiting my Grandparents with the kids..and she trained for a week on how to do all his husbandry...she’s told me she was a lizard wrangler this AM ...

 

[Remkon]

Last time i searched about this there still wasn't any scientific evidence that inbreeding in reptiles was harmful even tho plenty of hobbyists claim their animals health is bad because of it so I believe it's part of the issue.

I believe people buy reptiles that had improper husbandry since they hatched and have healthissues all their lives because of that bad start...
Problem is the price, it's just impossible to have a veiled in a store for 30$ that had proper care! It simply is too cheap!

Chainstores need to stop selling reptiles, they force a low price that no proper breeder can compete with, then the animal also doesn't get the care it requires for the tme it hatched till it's sold... It's asking for problems.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

Honestly? Genetic diversity is the holy grail of health! How could anyone ever even question it?

 

[Curlytails]

Don’t buy a vieled? Maybe be careful and buy a vieled after doing your research. I’m not being funny or snarky(honestly don’t mean or want to be) but do you think panthers keep getting more dramatic looking by coincidence (or inbreeding) .i mean let’s be real here..it’s about doing some research,something I made a big mistake on 1st go round... I didn’t do my due diligence first go round and ended up with a deathly ill, and very sad first Cham...I thought he was just lazy...not sick..my second Cham is likely 50% wild, b/c I know the practices of some “reputable breeders” (most certainly not all)...and have seen vieled chams with his bright colors come from the “transplanted wild” FL areas...in YouTube posts, left -right-sideways- those vieled are showing high yellows, varied blues and greens in the wild...they didn’t start that way...they were put out there to reproduce ... and my breeder admitted to wild caught lines, to add variety and color...and he’ll likely be hardier due to the fact that he’s more than likely not born from a 2nd tier relation...inbreeding ruins lots of animals...I appreciate the post though, made me think(and I know where you were going) ... I miss Harry this week...but my wifey has actually taken a liking to him while I’m in FL visiting my Grandparents with the kids..and she trained for a week on how to do all his husbandry...she’s told me she was a lizard wrangler this AM ...

you are absolutely correct about that. yeah... i just dont want animals to suffer for the benefit of the breeder. thank you for your input and knowledge
curly

 

[Curlytails]

also here in the uk they are bought for up to 3 pounds a piece. these people have no regard for the animals welfare. they are wholesaled to pet stores and hobbyists like me want to breed and if they do go through with it they just add more bad genes to the lacking diversity.

 

[leedragon]

this may sound like the most BS anyone has ever heard but these animals have lost genetic variation and the gene pool is constantly shrinking. genetic deformities and illnesses are popping up everywhere. so please do not buy a veild. if you do please get one from a breeder that can show you the animals lines. i am personally experiencing the struggles that the animals go through. my lil guy Reggie constantly suffers due to the eye conditions and it is upsetting. please do not make the mistake i made. best of luck to you guys!
curly

I belive the whole population of Yemens in captivity are inbreed. I belive non export of wild Yemens had been made since the original ones.

 

[dshuld]

I know @betzjen has done some studying on tongue issues being related to genetic problems from line/in breeding. Not sure if she'd mind sharing here or mind me posting screen shots from the fb thread. I think her findings do attest to the fact diversity is needed in the bloodlines though.

 

[jannb]

I belive the whole population of Yemens in captivity are inbreed. I belive non export of wild Yemens had been made since the original ones.

Mine are definitely not!

 

[JacksJill]

I don't know that inbreeding is an issue in veiled in the US maybe in the UK. If you look you can find reputable breeders like @jannb that treat theirs like family.
I know one of the main problems for veiled is the conditions that the females and juveniles experience while at the wholesalers facilities. If you look way back on this site you can find descriptions of appalling treatment that many don't survive. If the females are not given adequate care then the eggs they lay will hatch out young that don't have the reserves necessary to grow properly. At some point in their development it will catch up to them. Husbandry, husbandry, husbandry. Once the stress of the pet store hits them they are already depleted, a week of that and the stress of a new home and we get to see it every day here, they are tapped out with one foot in the grave.
Jackson's chameleons from Hawaii are very inbred and it shows in their size and prevalence horn deformities. They also have another problem. Hawaii has volcanic soil and it doesn't release as much calcium as they would get in their native range. Their slower metabolism is probably the only thing in their favor because they are meant to live on less. The Kenyan imports are much larger thriftier animals.
I'm not advocating inbreeding but I'm sure we would see more problems with the Nosy Be and Nosy Faly's if it was too much of an issue. Between their island isolation and the line breeding for color they should be a mess. Yes, outcrossing is a superior breeding tactic and best practice but the occasional reintroduction of traits every few generations can probably be tolerated as long as it is not excessive in chameleons (uncle niece not brother sister).
Ok now you can bite my head off.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

I don't know that inbreeding is an issue in veiled in the US maybe in the UK. If you look you can find reputable breeders like @jannb that treat theirs like family.
I know one of the main problems for veiled is the conditions that the females and juveniles experience while at the wholesalers facilities. If you look way back on this site you can find descriptions of appalling treatment that many don't survive. If the females are not given adequate care then the eggs they lay will hatch out young that don't have the reserves necessary to grow properly. At some point in their development it will catch up to them. Husbandry, husbandry, husbandry. Once the stress of the pet store hits them they are already depleted, a week of that and the stress of a new home and we get to see it every day here, they are tapped out with one foot in the grave.
Jackson's chameleons from Hawaii are very inbred and it shows in their size and prevalence horn deformities. They also have another problem. Hawaii has volcanic soil and it doesn't release as much calcium as they would get in their native range. Their slower metabolism is probably the only thing in their favor because they are meant to live on less. The Kenyan imports are much larger thriftier animals.
I'm not advocating inbreeding but I'm sure we would see more problems with the Nosy Be and Nosy Faly's if it was too much of an issue. Between their island isolation and the line breeding for color they should be a mess. Yes, outcrossing is a superior breeding tactic and best practice but the occasional reintroduction of traits every few generations can probably be tolerated as long as it is not excessive in chameleons (uncle niece not brother sister).
Ok now you can bite my head off.

If it is not ok for my auntie and I, my cousin and I or my niece and I, why the heck would it be OK for my chameleons to limit their gene pool like that and potentially breed pain, suffering and a short sickly life in to their offspring!?

Preposterous! This insanity needs to stop!

I can see it being ok as a last resort when a species is near extinction! For instance when only a few members of the species remain! But we are not there with chameleons so why contribute to their suffering when we know better? And to think we are doing it for our own monetary gain and eastetic pleasure!!! How selfish!

 

[JacksJill]

I appreciate your outrage. Do note that I said it would not be best practice and I do not encourage it. If you can find unrelated pairs that would be best practice always. I also said tolerated as opposed to encouraged. Do chameleons disperse great distances from the point where they hatch or do they find the closest territory that they can easily defend and find mates that are probably in some way related to them? This is how beneficial mutations are preserved in nature. Of course we should endeavor to exceed mother nature in our care where possible. Good that you do so.
Panther breeders are lucky to have the option to know the lineage of the animals they are breeding. I breed from only captive breds of a rarer species with almost no continuous lines in the US I have had to search far and wide for unrelated animals born here. I have been lucky so far but I can't even be sure they aren't all from the same stock at the export end.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

I am sorry that me quoting your post possibly made it seem that I was attacking you! I know your struggle with the guys you are working with and I know how hard you work at genetic diversity! I know in your heart you agree with me but that you/we are sometimes out of options due to laws and availability and that you constantly crave new blood!

My apologies if I sounded like you were a target!