battle of the chameleons??!?!!?!

[slang1]

Be very careful judging people by normal human thoughts for what is right and whats wrong. When you stress your chameleon by firing him/her up showing him another male, puting him infront of a mirror, putting a male in front of a none receptive female etc. Who´s the judge for that is not equal harmful in a physcigal way to the chameleon? Nobody knows but it´s considered okay to do this, in fact all the big breeder do that to show their males fired up colores... Im not saying it´s okay to set up a fight like that, but is it okay to stress your chameleon unessary? Just my to cents.

 

[pssh]

Do we need to do this? On ANY level? No. Time has shown that this is not critical to breeding by any means.

While there are some points that I agree and disagree with (both your own and others') I would like to point out that we have not been able to breed past the F5 generation (except veileds) without introducing new WC blood. This in itself shows that there is obviously something we are missing in our husbandry or in our choices as to which animals should be able to breed. Perhaps only allowing the winning males to breed would allow us to get past this obstacle that we have yet to overcome. In that sense, we do not really know if it is needed or not to get past it. For all we know, it may indeed be critical to get past the F5 generation. I'm not saying it will work (or that I am experienced or knowledgeable enough to say if it is worth it,) but it is what I immediately thought of when the argument that it could be beneficial was brought up.

I personally believe that it would be a good thing to attempt in a controlled manner by an experienced keeper. I do not believe that, in this case and with this owner, it should have been done at all though.

Edit: I added some stuff that wasn't included in the quote used below.

 

[drcrossfire]

While there are some points that I agree and disagree with (both your own and others') I would like to point out that we have not been able to breed past the F5 generation (except veileds) without introducing new WC blood. This in itself shows that there is obviously something we are missing in our husbandry or in our choices as to which animals should be able to breed. Perhaps only allowing the winning males to breed would allow us to get past this obstacle that we have yet to overcome. In that sense, we do not really know if it is needed or not to get past it. For all we know, it may indeed be critical to get past the F5 generation. I'm not saying it will work (or that I am experienced or knowledgeable enough to say if it is worth it,) but it is what I immediately thought of when the argument that it could be beneficial was brought up.

I personally believe that it would be a good thing to attempt in a controlled manner by an experienced keeper. I do not believe that, in this case and with this owner, it should have been done at all though.

totally agree with this-- we dont know something that makes us HAVE to use WC lines...

with that being said, that video, even with good intentions, in the wrong hands could cause problems.

edit-- fixed her quote

 

[pssh]

Whoops, I added some stuff after you quoted me.

 

[MagicEngineer]

I battle my Jacksons once in a while...closely monitored though, so it's mostly just a shoving match. Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spYJvPCI1Vw

My first thought about this video, like may others was that you should not be allowed to keep chams. After some thought however, I do see the possible benefits. Now, having given it much more thought, I would say this. If you are a research scientist and you wish to study the potential benefits I am all for it. If not, I would see this an an unnecessary risk. Chameleons, kept properly, will live longer in captivity then they likely will in the wild. That tells us that the more accepted methods are working and that adding potentially dangerous elements of their wild existence is not going to improve their life span. I would love to read a study on weather or not this has any beneficial effects, but until someone qualified to do such a study comes along, I believe that the danger outweighs any potential benefit.

 

[DanSB]

While there are some points that I agree and disagree with (both your own and others') I would like to point out that we have not been able to breed past the F5 generation (except veileds) without introducing new WC blood. This in itself shows that there is obviously something we are missing in our husbandry or in our choices as to which animals should be able to breed. Perhaps only allowing the winning males to breed would allow us to get past this obstacle that we have yet to overcome. In that sense, we do not really know if it is needed or not to get past it. For all we know, it may indeed be critical to get past the F5 generation. I'm not saying it will work (or that I am experienced or knowledgeable enough to say if it is worth it,) but it is what I immediately thought of when the argument that it could be beneficial was brought up.

I personally believe that it would be a good thing to attempt in a controlled manner by an experienced keeper. I do not believe that, in this case and with this owner, it should have been done at all though.

Edit: I added some stuff that wasn't included in the quote used below.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say the entire time. Except I think you made the point much more directly than I did. thank you.

 

[ataraxia]

I would like to point out that we have not been able to breed past the F5 generation (except veileds) without introducing new WC blood.

Id like to read more on this. Can i please have some links.

People never cease to amaze me. Sparring, showing dominance is the way to your true inner psyche. GTFO. A chameleon does not need to show dominance to live a healthy life. You guys are taking this to a level that is so far out in left ball field Ryan Braun cant chase after it.

I find it pretty condescending to say hey, i didnt put them in front of each other and make them fight. I dont believe half of his bullshit. Was a psychology major, has successfully raised jacksons and never lost a one..cause he has only been doing it 8 months, he clearly thinks he knows animals proving how he introduces dogs is another point. He knew what was going to happen.

So this video proves what? Two male jacksons will spar? Great job, this is such a discovery...O'wait it is possibly the key to breeding past f5..NO NO NO its needed to successfully raise jacksons!! Ok, nvm i got it! Its to keep a physiological balance within these complex minds!

 

[giaindell]

I personally think in no way should anyone do this whether there is benefits or not because there is still a risk in injury to your animal even if you are standing right there or not accidents happen, and accidents happen quick. i just recommend against it. I am just voicing my opinion im not pretending I am a specialist or anything of the sort.

 

[AllFallDown]

I am interested in knowing where this whole not being able to breed past the F5 generation without wild caught genetics thing is coming from. I am a bit skeptical, but if you have hard data you have hard data- lets see it. Could it be that we have not made it past the F5 generation because we keep chosing the introduce Wild Caught genetics. How many breeding lines are there out there for some of these species? It seems more likely this is a choice. But I am not speaking from authority here- I am more than willing to stand corrected given documentation.

Even so, lets suppose that's true. This line if reasoning does not add up:

Problem: We can not get chameleons to breed past F5
Solution: Throw them in the back yard and let them duke it out.

If allowing them to fight and thus establish a dominant male would allow breeding past F5, wouldn't said chameleons have already possibly had the opportunity to mate anyway? If so, wouldn't we have already made it past F5? Or are these chosen ones so rare that the combinatorial noise is to great and we need to battle them to sort it all out? Not sure I believe sexual robustness and ability to win a fight always go hand in hand.

In fact, if we assume that the strongest specimens are the ones who can breed past F5 (which is how I have been reading these arguments by the way), then wouldn't it be true that they would be the only ones that CAN breed past F5 which would mean they would be selected ANYWAY despite never getting into a fight in the first place? It seems like if we accept the whole F5/need to fight hypothesis it leads to some kind of reason why fighting would not statistically be necessary. (Disclaimer: this is not a very rigorous argument but I do believe with some clean up it would hold, maybe I will tighten it up later but I am off the clock right now so my brain is dead.)

Now my head hurts...

 

[DanSB]

So after thinking about this it occurred to me this is a terrible forum to discuss long term captive breeding and genetic viability of chameleons. Not chameleon forums in general but this particular thread.

My brain went to a problem it has been working on for awhile when I saw this rather than where it should have gone and I couldn't figure out why people were being closed minded and a bit foolish. I have one of those analytic minds that will often overlook morality in favor of finding a solution to a problem.

In this instance it was a bad idea as there is no documentation on results and no effects with an actual breeding program. But to say it is always a bad idea? Well for the general audience here sure it is always a bad idea. I agree.

As a final note... show me one advance in animal husbandry, biological, or medical science that didn't involve suffering or death of some kind and I will show you an insignificant advance.

"Life is pain princess, and anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something"

 

[chameleonboy1]

Ok this post needs to be locked deleted or something

 

[KarmaChameleon1337]

Curious OP, anything new happen with the kids?

 

[Elizadolots]

Am I the only one who cares what happened with chameleonboy?

 

[KarmaChameleon1337]

Nah, I do too Eliza.

 

[AllFallDown]

As a final note... show me one advance in animal husbandry, biological, or medical science that didn't involve suffering or death of some kind and I will show you an insignificant advance.

You show me a Joe Schmo who performs heart surgery on his own dog to learn how to help his dog, I will show you a nut case who it practicing without a license

Although I find this thread interesting. It seems some people are getting a bit tired of it topping the new posts lists, so I am going to bow out. I would be interested in hearing more about some of this in the near future (perhaps a topic that is a bit less likely to start a flame war perhaps?).

Respectfully- to both sides of the debate.

 

[chameleonboy1]

Here I am lol well I told the kids that if I found out that they do it that I will kick their ass... pardon my french I also told the school cop who got on to them and told them the same thing........ almost but he said he would give them a ticket

 

[AllFallDown]

Here I am lol well I told the kids that if I found out that they do it that I will kick their ass... pardon my french I also told the school cop who got on to them

Nice! Good job (just make sure you don't make enemies)!

I am glad to hear that you spoke up for what you believed in. More specifically, you spoke out about a perceived injustice. That is very respectable, IMO. Those kids may never have done anything. Then again, they may have in which case you very well could have saved one or both of their lives.

 

[AllFallDown]

Am I the only one who cares what happened with chameleonboy?

I cared, and had been waiting for an update. He posted this 2 days ago, personally, I did not feel a need to request an update yet. In the mean time I found the tangential conversation to be very interesting (although a bit heated at times).

 

[Elizadolots]

Good job, chameleonboy! I'm proud of you.

AllFallDown...it's important to respect the original topic. Hopefully someone can split the thread into two threads.

 

[Action Jackson]

Wow. Lots of opinions here. Here's mine. I do not think allowing two males to spar or fight or whatever you want to call it and put it on YouTube is a good idea. I do think allowing two male Jacksonii to see each other and get excited IS good for them. Let's face it besides getting worked up over seeing another male or getting jiggly with a female their lives in a cage probably suck. Does anyone think about what these guys go through to get here? They get caught, thrown into cages with a bunch of other males and females, shipped long distances in poor conditions, housed together at the importer, then at the dealer, then at the pet store....Do you think they fight during this time? Do you think they are supervised? Have you ever seen Jackson's missing eyes? All scarred up? Bite marks?

As I said I don't condone what the OP did but there are so many things that happen to these guys that are far worse IMO.

Comparing this to dogs, cats and birds is ridiculous IMO. Those animals do serious damage to each other. I have never seen a Jackson with injuries from fighting. Can it happen? I'm sure it can and does sometimes but injury and death are probably rare occurrences during these encounters.

If you think having two males interact is stressful to the chameleons then stop putting your Panthers in front of the mirror or in front of another male.

I wouldn't do what the OP did but I have put two males together and I've let them touch horns but for me that's as far as it goes. I see no point in letting them duke it out.

My opinion on the breeding thing is, if I had a group of males and I wanted to pick one to breed with a female I would pick the one that had the most desirable traits like coloring or body size not wether one could flip the other over on the grass.

As far as animal abuse, well this is a matter of opinion. No damage was done, no blood was drawn. This is something that happens ALL the time in a natural setting, so in my opinion it's not, but it is pretty uncool and not something you need to show off.

This is a touchy subject. People get really kooky with thier pets. I'm sure there are people on here that love thier chameleons more than some of the humans in their lives. A little common sense goes a long ways.