Basking light on a them control

[mjhandy]

Is there any advantage to having the basking light on a temp control system, or is a timer enough. While I'm not worried about our ambient temps in the summer, winter is tricky.

 

[Jared910]

A timer should be enough as long as your basking area is the proper temp. Most people here just find a light that sits at the correct temp and then set a timer and forget about it.

 

[Angelwolf]

No. Just no.

 

[nightanole]

basking light is for digestion, not cage temp. If its off some times but on others, you will have a very confused cham that will just stop using it. If the cage gets too hot, just get a lower wattage bulb. You only need to get most chams to the upper 80's lower 90's. If your cage temps are in that range, you will have other issues.

 

[jamest0o0]

Actually I think a temp control would be very useful for some people, myself included. My room swings from about 60-80s and I'd like knowing that there is something in place if I am not home to keep my guy from burning. Assuming you still have UVB and maybe some plant lights on, he shouldn't be that confused. It isn't bright and sunny every in the wild, I don't see why the basking turning off for a little at too high of a temp would matter. It would be nice if there was something to automatically dim the basking though instead of shutting it off completely.

 

[nightanole]

Actually I think a temp control would be very useful for some people, myself included. My room swings from about 60-80s and I'd like knowing that there is something in place if I am not home to keep my guy from burning. Assuming you still have UVB and maybe some plant lights on, he shouldn't be that confused. It isn't bright and sunny every in the wild, I don't see why the basking turning off for a little at too high of a temp would matter. It would be nice if there was something to automatically dim the basking though instead of shutting it off completely.

here is the thought problem.

Any bulb that can raise cage temp by 20 degrees is going to be huge, and not going to be useful for basking.

A bulb that raises basking temp in a 60f cage to 80f under the bulb, is not going to raise a 80f cage to 100f under the bulb.


On the other hand if you had say a 75 watt bulb UNDER the cage that was meant to create a 20f updraft so that a 60f cage got to 80f during the day, then yes a controller would be good.

If you want to go that route, you would want basically a reptile tape thermostat/controller that is "proportional". This will vary the voltage going to the bulb/mat/heater based on air temperature.

 

[jamest0o0]

I didn't mean the bulb was going to change the whole cage. i just meant, if my bulb is on while my cage is at 60 ambient vs 85 ambient, isn't it still going to push the basking into dangerous territory, or just be unnecessary? If i check my basking in the cool mornings it might be low 80s, but mid day it can go up to mid/high 90s. I turn it off if it reaches that. although i have not caught my chams basking directly under it When it gets that high, but still worries me.

 

[nightanole]

I didn't mean the bulb was going to change the whole cage. i just meant, if my bulb is on while my cage is at 60 ambient vs 85 ambient, isn't it still going to push the basking into dangerous territory, or just be unnecessary? If i check my basking in the cool mornings it might be low 80s, but mid day it can go up to mid/high 90s. I turn it off if it reaches that. although i have not caught my chams basking directly under it When it gets that high, but still worries me.

To get a "burn" the setup would need to be so crappy that the cham skin could reach well over 110-120f. You are like 98.6 degrees, you will not burn your cham, but if you hug it too long, that 98.6 will cause problems over a prolonged time. Your dog might be 102f, its not going to burn you, but again if you were wrapped in "dog" you would over heat over a prolonged time.

So yes air temps in the 90's will cause chams harm over time. Basking spots well above 100f will cause thermal burns. But 80f cage with a high 90's basking spot is fine. its not optimal but its not harmful.

A properly setup basking spot wont burn a cham, period, it doesnt matter what the air temp is.

 

[jamest0o0]

There are people who have reported burnings at 90 so maybe i'm just paranoid. I remember @Andee mentioning this, maybe she has some input. even if burns aren't a worry unless the basking is well over 100, i also don't see how turning it off to help cool down would cause problems. surely there are cloudy days in madagascar. I wonder if replicating natural environments with cloudy days/storm modes/etc helps any though, or just adds unneeded stress...

 

[nightanole]

There are people who have reported burnings at 90 so maybe i'm just paranoid. I remember @Andee mentioning this, maybe she has some input. even if burns aren't a worry unless the basking is well over 100, i also don't see how turning it off to help cool down would cause problems. surely there are cloudy days in madagascar. I wonder if replicating natural environments with cloudy days/storm modes/etc helps any though, or just adds unneeded stress...

Mine get confused when the heater vent that they hang out on during the winter starts blowing out cold air in the summer...

 

[Andee]

I use a basking light that goes no higher than 88 degrees F with my panther. For my jackson I used to turn of my basking light all the time when it became to warm during the summer (she only had a 60 watt) but we don't have an air conditioner as most houses don't where we live. During late spring and all through summer heat was an issue with her. I ended up getting a dimmer with her and I still often turned off the basking light completely. Her UVB light was kept on all the time during that time. If the ambient temps are 80 you should be fine in my opinion as long as they have the ability to warm up for a couple hours in the morning.

 

[broderp]

Or you could totally over thinking it like I did. I use a ceramic heater for basking. I have the heater controlled by my Jacksonator (temp comptroller). Since no light comes from the emitter, the controller can easily cycle the emitter on and off to maintain a constant temp within 1-2 degrees. I also use LED and UVB lighting for the actual terrarium lighting. This way my lighting is independent of the heating.

I'm lazy. This method takes care of itself regardless of the time of year or inside temp. IN the winter, it maintained 83 F, now in the early summer, with AC usage around the corner it still maintains the same temp. I would be the one to forget to adjust the lamp if I had to do this every so often.

 

[jamest0o0]

@broderp i need to get on your level with those controllers.

 

[broderp]

@broderp i need to get on your level with those controllers.

LOL, There are many on the market you can buy to do this, but I found them expensive so I designed my own.

I must be all alone in my thinking as my threads on this never go anywhere:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/controller-feedback-please.126024/

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/jacksonator-v2-temp-humidity-controller.154717/

Literally no one cared, so I scrapped plans to produce these and just make them for my own use. I'm on V3 now that will probably use a programmed logic chip and Arduino programming on a printed circuit board that I will lay out and have made. I'm hoping to improve on the current model and add features such as fading of lighting via PWM to simulate sunrise and sunset. It's a tough process to learn the basics needed, but as EE, it's not so bad. I figure if the number of "kids" messing with Arduinio and programming circuits can do it, so can I (And by kids I respectfully mean anyone under the age of 30, I'm 48 )

 

[jamest0o0]

I never saw those posts, but i think something to automate would be great. The only reason i haven't bought one is because i can't seem to find many reviews or information on them. Most people with chams, tend to keep things pretty simplistic. not like reef aquriums where a lot of people have state-of-the-art controllers and equipment.

 

[mjhandy]

I thought chams needs a heat source that gives off light so they know where it is.

 

[Furciferocious]

Keep in mind that you're trying to control radiant heat by measuring air temperature. Here's another thought experiment. In much of the US the air temperature on any summer afternoon can be anywhere between 70 deg and 100 deg, but the output from the sun is the same. I would make sure the lamp isn't hot enough to burn with the "5 minute hand test", and not worry as much about the air temperature. Use the timer.

 

[broderp]

I thought chams needs a heat source that gives off light so they know where it is.

I was told that as well, but all 3 of my Chams know exactly where the basking spot is without a doubt. I'm not sure I buy into that school of thought any more. Sherman goes to the highest point under the heat emitter every morning to "warm" up. He spends a lot of time there. He then walks down to his feeder as soon as he sees me put his food in for him. When I check up on him thru out the day on his "Web-Cham" I see him up there often. I believe it's way to much of a coincidence.

Keep in mind that you're trying to control radiant heat by measuring air temperature. Here's another thought experiment. In much of the US the air temperature on any summer afternoon can be anywhere between 70 deg and 100 deg, but the output from the sun is the same. I would make sure the lamp isn't hot enough to burn with the "5 minute hand test", and not worry as much about the air temperature. Use the timer.

Interesting concept, but how does radiant heat from a bulb compare to that of the sun? Radiant heat from my understanding generally will warm an object and make it feel warm without the actual air around the object actually being warmer. So from a practical perspective, radiant heat is warmer than actual air temp.

Since we are not measuring direct sunlight in most enclosures, then the question is "How does radiant heat from a bulb or emitter compare to that of the sun?" I also have to wonder if there is some constant to radiant energy that can be assumed by the air temp. I've never seen a care sheet or book on Chams saying that a Cham's temp should be measured using a radiant scale rather than a temperature one. This leads me to believe that radiant heat is either factored in to the actual temp or its not a factor. But what do I know about this subject?

 

[Furciferocious]

I was told that as well, but all 3 of my Chams know exactly where the basking spot is without a doubt. I'm not sure I buy into that school of thought any more. Sherman goes to the highest point under the heat emitter every morning to "warm" up. He spends a lot of time there. He then walks down to his feeder as soon as he sees me put his food in for him. When I check up on him thru out the day on his "Web-Cham" I see him up there often. I believe it's way to much of a coincidence.



Interesting concept, but how does radiant heat from a bulb compare to that of the sun? Radiant heat from my understanding generally will warm an object and make it feel warm without the actual air around the object actually being warmer. So from a practical perspective, radiant heat is warmer than actual air temp.

Since we are not measuring direct sunlight in most enclosures, then the question is "How does radiant heat from a bulb or emitter compare to that of the sun?" I also have to wonder if there is some constant to radiant energy that can be assumed by the air temp. I've never seen a care sheet or book on Chams saying that a Cham's temp should be measured using a radiant scale rather than a temperature one. This leads me to believe that radiant heat is either factored in to the actual temp or its not a factor. But what do I know about this subject?

The comparison is that the bulb and the sun are both radiant sources. As you note in your second sentence, radiant heat can warm an object without warming the air. The problem is that many people are trying to control their radiant heat with thermometers that measure air temperature.

Going off on a tangent now, but it's seemed odd to me that chameleons will sit there and get thermal burns. Every other animal I know of will move away from excess heat. But maybe in nature there is no need, because they will never get close enough to the sun to get a thermal burn, and if a fire comes through they are dead anyway. Plus, heat lamps are different from the sun because of the way the energy diminishes. IIRC, radiant energy reduces as 1/r^2, where "r" is the distance to the source. Obviously, there is no way to appreciably change the distance between yourself and the sun. But, with a light bulb that is 8 inches away, the 3 or so inches between the top of a veiled's casque and the bottom of its head represent a 2x drop in radiant energy. Maybe the chams would be better with higher power heat sources placed further away. That would give a larger warm zone with less of a vertical gradient.
But, I only know enough to get myself in trouble.

 

[broderp]

The comparison is that the bulb and the sun are both radiant sources. As you note in your second sentence, radiant heat can warm an object without warming the air. The problem is that many people are trying to control their radiant heat with thermometers that measure air temperature.

Going off on a tangent now, but it's seemed odd to me that chameleons will sit there and get thermal burns. Every other animal I know of will move away from excess heat. But maybe in nature there is no need, because they will never get close enough to the sun to get a thermal burn, and if a fire comes through they are dead anyway. Plus, heat lamps are different from the sun because of the way the energy diminishes. IIRC, radiant energy reduces as 1/r^2, where "r" is the distance to the source. Obviously, there is no way to appreciably change the distance between yourself and the sun. But, with a light bulb that is 8 inches away, the 3 or so inches between the top of a veiled's casque and the bottom of its head represent a 2x drop in radiant energy. Maybe the chams would be better with higher power heat sources placed further away. That would give a larger warm zone with less of a vertical gradient.
But, I only know enough to get myself in trouble.

Good point. Nice tangent. Perhaps we are over thinking this. I have never seen any of the honorable and noble member here (the ones who breed or have crazy high points for being a reputable and knowledgeable member) ever worry about radiant heat or ask about radiant heat over air temp.