Back from the Vet and not good :(

[cantgetagoodsn]

I was getting a little worried when my Jackson's was getting lethargic. I looked online and saw a lot of people saying the same thing. But then he stopped eating, HARDLY uses his front feet, and will not move at all. Plus sleeping more during the day.

The vet at first thought he had mouth rot, but then decided it was just dried up blood. I may have accidentally cut (I think) him when I was trying to get in the Repta Aid. He suggested calcium injections, but didn't have any. I called the other vet in my area and in order to give those injections, I need another appointment, and unfortunately do not have the money right now. Now guys, I usually have excess cash for exactly this, but this week a lot of unexpected costs have presented themselves, so please hold the lecture. Thank you.

So now, the vet recommended giving him as much calcium as I could. I was only giving him calcium every other 1-2 feedings, as recommendation of this forum. I think that is WAY too little now... he may have MBD

Any suggestions on making him open his mouth? I can't do ANYTHING to get his mouth open...


Here are my questions from last thread:

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Male Jackson's Chameleon. He is about a year and a half, I've had him a little over six months.
Handling - Right now, only if I need to.
Feeding - Crickets and waxworms. He eats 3-8 every other day. I am gutloading with cricket crack.
Supplements - Reptivite of calcium, calcium with D3, and multivitamin. He gets calcium about every other feeding, and the other two once a month.
Watering - Combination of MistKing and a dripper. I see him drinking all of the time.
Fecal Description - Poop is somewhat soft. Urine is white most of the time.
History - Received him from flchams.com and have had him since.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - I have a 2'x2'x4' screen cage which is always left open for free ranging.
Lighting - Reptiglo and Reptisun 5.0 linear tubes. One on top of his cage, and one on top of the free range. I have a 40W bulb for basking.
Temperature - Basking is about 84-86. Everywhere else is about 70-72. Overnight doesn't get below 65 ever. I have a digital thermo to measure temp.
Humidity - Humidity is 60%-85% most of the time. Using live plants and MistKing to regulate humidity. I use a digital gauge to measure.
Plants - Three pothos.
Placement - In my room, plenty high off the ground. 6.5 ft.
Location - Lubbock, TX.

 

[kinyonga]

If the chameleon needs calcium you can buy a liquid calcium sandoz or gluconate at the pharmacy that is more easily absorbed than the powders. Just don't get too carried away with it. A calcium overdose is not a good thing either.

Did you fill out the "how to ask for help" questions in the health section?

 

[cantgetagoodsn]

I edited the original post with that info. I had it in another thread...

And is the liquid calcium at the pharmacy the SAME stuff? I have the Repta Aid calcium stuff, powder mixed with water to give a paste, but he literally will not open his mouth AT all...

 

[jojackson]

Given you use liquid drops instead, first mist with water over its head till you see it drinking,
at this point just drip the stuff on the mouth (so it runs in like the water does). A much less stressful method than actually forcing the mouth open and risking damage as you suggest above. This leaves the animal open to infection via bacteria and should be avoided where possible. Id ask the vet about liquid calcium.

Just a note, both the use a supplements and artificial uv make the chemistry a bit tricky
anyway. Do check the dates of your uv source to be sure its doing its job since the lizard requires it to metabolise the calcium.
Remember the idea of boosting its blood calcium levels, is just that, not a long term thing, you dont want to overdo it. If you can get your lizard outside as much as possible while your doing that, all the better. Vet should recommend followup blood extraction to test levels.

Sidenote: Too often I see folk recommend forcefeeding of all kinds of goop to sick lizards, often to folk with no idea How to do that safely, and no information given how either. In some cases the person reports they did so/were doing so, and then the lizard rapidly died. I strongly suspect in most of these cases, the unwitting person actually fast tracked the animals death via aspiration pneumonia without realising, though I'd never be cruel enough to make a point of it to them.
It's far too easy for a struggling lizard to inhale food or water and for an experienced person to get in in the windpipe.
Using a syringe and tube to be sure of administration into throat, beyond the windpipe, cleanly, is rarely advised, but a much safer option, though it too requires great care.
Forcefeeding anything is ALWAYS, a last resort short of death, and then should be demonstrated by an experienced person or vet.
Way too many folk recommend it, way too early.

 

[ataraxia]

If the chameleon needs calcium you can buy a liquid calcium sandoz or gluconate at the pharmacy that is more easily absorbed than the powders. Just don't get too carried away with it. A calcium overdose is not a good thing either.

Did you fill out the "how to ask for help" questions in the health section?

per gram of animal how much is not safe?

op: please dont tell me you used the needle on the syringe? i cant see how the syringe provided by reptaid can cause a laceration. it has a well rounded tip.

 

[cantgetagoodsn]

Of course I didn't use a needle lol. The vet seemed to give me mixed signals... he didn't really explain why it was bleeding.

 

[cantgetagoodsn]

Well, I was able to get some Repta Aid down him, I'll get more tomorrow. He hates me I can tell, but I'm trying to get this guy better!

 

[BocaJan]

I give my ladies calcium glutamate 1x/week since they are breeders. If you give them too much of the calcium powder it just comes out their nose (many people ask why their cham has white nostrils, that's why, too much calcium on their crickets). That said, it sounds to me like you aren't feeding your fella very much. If I am ready correctly you said 5 crickets every other day and calcium every other feeding? You should be dusting your crickets every feeding. I feed my adult male veiled chams 5-8 crickets per feeding. Generally that is 5 times a week. I shoot for 5 a day, but those crickets are jumpy and the guys like to help themselves to the cup and can gulp down 3 or 4 at a time with those sticky tongues. I also give them 3-4 supers a week. I put a drop of /calcium glutamate on the worms which equals about .5 mg. I tried to inject that amount into a worm for awhile, but it was a pain and .5 mg is such a small amount I decided it was easier to let the worms roll around in the stuff and just let the chams get it that way. Works much better.

Good luck with your fella and hope he gets better quickly.

 

[Aminah Undone]

A few years ago, I rescued a Veiled juvenile with severe MBD. My Vet prescribed the calcium gluconate, as well. Fortunately, Happy.. ironic, right? ..hated me so much, he would gape and "growl" at me whenever I approached... making it very easy to drop the liquid into his mouth.

I'm not suggesting that you piss off your Cham, but I will tell you that the regular use of the calcium gluconate ceased any advancement in the MBD and my Vet suggested that it may have even reversed some of the adverse effect.

If you are not trying the calcium gluconate, I definitely would. It's in the $7-$10 range at most local pharmacies. Ask your Pharmacist for it, specifically. Usually, it's available for human infants; but they will almost always special order it for you.

Good Luck!

 

[cantgetagoodsn]

A few years ago, I rescued a Veiled juvenile with severe MBD. My Vet prescribed the calcium gluconate, as well. Fortunately, Happy.. ironic, right? ..hated me so much, he would gape and "growl" at me whenever I approached... making it very easy to drop the liquid into his mouth.

I'm not suggesting that you piss off your Cham, but I will tell you that the regular use of the calcium gluconate ceased any advancement in the MBD and my Vet suggested that it may have even reversed some of the adverse effect.

If you are not trying the calcium gluconate, I definitely would. It's in the $7-$10 range at most local pharmacies. Ask your Pharmacist for it, specifically. Usually, it's available for human infants; but they will almost always special order it for you.

Good Luck!

I will definitely have to try that!

 

[kinyonga]

Just be careful with the liquid calcium....its syrupy and they have more difficulty swallowing it than water....and you definitely don't want to get any of it in the lungs....so don't just squirt it in.

 

[cantgetagoodsn]

Just be careful with the liquid calcium....its syrupy and they have more difficulty swallowing it than water....and you definitely don't want to get any of it in the lungs....so don't just squirt it in.

OK, I squirted a little of the paste from Repta Aid and he seemed to drink it down just fine. I'm starting to gain confidence in him. He had two helpings of Repta Aid today and I saw him drinking a little. Time will tell!

 

[lilwish]

I HOPE YOUR LITTLE GUY GETS BETTER!!!!!

that doesnt give much faith in the vets if they couldnt tell you what was wrong

question though what is mouth rot? and what causes it??

 

[cantgetagoodsn]

I HOPE YOUR LITTLE GUY GETS BETTER!!!!!

that doesnt give much faith in the vets if they couldnt tell you what was wrong

question though what is mouth rot? and what causes it??

It wasn't mouth rot. He thinks it a lack of calcium causing him to be lethargic, and therefore not getting the nutrients he needs.

Mouth Rot though I think is a general term for an infection in the mouth.

 

[lilwish]

yeah sorry I read where it said he didnt have it I was just wondering what it was

I really hope he gets better fast!! good luck!!

 

[pssh]

I just want to bring up the point (again) that too much calcium is bad too. Montanes seem to have a harder time handling the supplement schedule that is recommended for veileds and panthers. That said, jacksons are definitely one of the hardier species. Just watch out for any edema problems.

Can you post a picture? Especially the stuff in his mouth if it's still there.

 

[cantgetagoodsn]

I just want to bring up the point (again) that too much calcium is bad too. Montanes seem to have a harder time handling the supplement schedule that is recommended for veileds and panthers. That said, jacksons are definitely one of the hardier species. Just watch out for any edema problems.

Can you post a picture? Especially the stuff in his mouth if it's still there.

I can try, but the only time he has his mouth open is when I use a qtip and it would be covering his mouth... What are signs of edema?

 

[jojackson]

Edema means swelling due to fluid retention, you might see this as puffy appearance around the throat/gular area.

 

[Silkyslim]

Edema means swelling due to fluid retention, you might see this as puffy appearance around the throat/gular area.

What is the most common cause of Edema and how would you counter react the onset of Edema?

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Edema is a side effect of over supplementation. As stated the throat area will swell and give the appearance of swollen puffy animal. Almost like when a person is prescribed steroids, and they swell and gain water weight.

I dont think giving calcium at every other feeding was undersupplemting him. After he gets over this I'd recommend adding additional calcium to the feeders gutload. Try using water gel for hydration they have calcium added to them. Do you also add fruits and veggies to your feeder bin? I like to add a diff fruit or veggie each week to help round out nutrition, in addition to the crick crack.