Another opinion on eye issue please?

[KingJulien]

I'm worried. My chameleon had a droopy eye about a week ago and a respiratory infection. I took him to the vet and he gave us Baytril and said to supplement with vitamin A every other day. I administered the vitamin A orally (measured and diluted to 80IUs) twice, over 4 days. The eye seemed better for a day or two, and now it's looking worse again. Yesterday I smeared some vit A on a cricket and today I did the same with a superworm.

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - He is an ambilobe panther, CB, male, about 6 months old. I have had him one month.

Handling - Lately I handle him daily, to administer his medications. Otherwise I take him out sometimes to let him sit on a plant.

Feeding - He eats crickets and superworms. Some days 6 crickets, some days 3 superworms. I can't get him to eat his dubias yet. I offer him food throughout the day. He was eating more before he got sick. Gutload is a mix of fruits and veggies and almond meal and cereal.

Supplements - He has repcal calcium without D3 nearly every day, herptivite and calcuim with D3 twice a month.

Watering - I give him a dripper (about 20 minutes) twice a day, and I mist by hand 3 times a day. I offer water from his spray bottle 3-6 times a day, he comes and drinks if he wants to. He usually does drink from the nozzle once or twice a day, and he might also drink from his dripper or from the mist but I don't know.

Fecal Description - His fecal matter is normally brown with white, occasionally there is a little orange. I try to offer water more frequently if I see orange. This morning was the first orange urate I have seen in about a week. He has not been tested for parasites.

History - He had a respiratory infection that is now cleared up, but he is still taking baytril until Friday.

Cage Info:

Cage Type - Screen cage, 16x15x29 screen cage. The larger one is in the mail.

Lighting - He has a coil 5.0 UVB bulb (I know, I know, the new one is in the mail and he's outside when weather permits so we don't use it too much) He has a basking bulb, I think it's 40w. I turn it on when the sun comes up, and off when it goes down. I plan to get a timer.

Temperature - His basking spot is 85, lower cage during the day 70. Overnight it's 65-70 inside. I measure with analog guages and I check with a tool my husband has, I think it's infrared? It's digital and measures to a tenth of a degree.

Humidity - Humidity is anywhere from 40-60%, depending on the last time I misted. I try to keep the terracotta pots looking damp at the base most of the time. I use an analog gauge.

Plants - I have an umbrella plant for him to climb on, and he has a pothos in his cage and a croton (the one with multicolored leaves).

Placement - The cage is currently in the dining room, so there's not a lot of traffic. It's near a window, but I will definitely move it before it gets cold. There is an air vent in the room, but I don't think the cage gets much air flow from it. The top of the cage is about 5 feet off the ground.

Location - I'm in California, the east bay area. I'm an hour inland from San Francisco, we actually get weather here.

Current Problem - I'm concerned about my chameleon's eye. I am not sure if I should take him to the vet again or just give the vitamin A a few more days to see if it helps.

 

[jannb]

What was your vet like? Did your vet have allot of chameleon knowledge? I'm not a vet but you could try some Terramycin or Gentamicin and it that doesn't seems to be helping I would recommend a GOOD chameleon vet.

 

[KingJulien]

What was your vet like? Did your vet have allot of chameleon knowledge? I'm not a vet but you could try some Terramycin or Gentamicin and it that doesn't seems to be helping I would recommend a GOOD chameleon vet.

He did not seem to be much of an expert on chameleons in specific. He did know a lot about reptiles in general, though. There is another vet in the area but I don't think they had a lot of experience either. I will drive if I need to, but I'd like to see if I can learn from the expereince of people here before I go that route.

I'm not sure if I should continue with vitamin A treatment, try infection treatment, or take him to the vet again. The eye hasn't really changed since I took him in, except for the cloudy discharge.

Where can I buy those products, jannb?

 

[ChromaChameleons]

Vit A deficiency could be the problem. At 80IU/day , it will take a few applications before his Vit A levels are normal. Normal vit A dosage is between 300 - 600 IU per month.

As per Fergusen , it was determined to be 1-2 IU/ g/ wk.

You need to account for other sources when estimating how much more to supplement . Vit A is easily overdosed. Your herptivite does not contain preform vit A , only betacarotene. Be patient for another week.

How long did the vet prescribe the 80IU per day to be administered?

 

[KingJulien]

Vit A deficiency could be the problem. At 80IU/day , it will take a few applications before his Vit A levels are normal. Normal vit A dosage is between 300 - 600 IU per month.

As per Fergusen , it was determined to be 1-2 IU/ g/ wk.

You need to account for other sources when estimating how much more to supplement . Vit A is easily overdosed. Your herptivite does not contain preform vit A , only betacarotene. Be patient for another week.

How long did the vet prescribe the 80IU per day to be administered?

It's actually 80 IU every other day. I diluted an 8000 IU pill with flax oil to get the measurement, but I read after that chams don't like oil. So I switched yesterday to a dab of it on the back of a bug.

The doc reccomended to give him the vit A until it cleared up. He was weighed at 40 grams, so 80IU should be daily? That sounds about like the new dosage I'm trying. Even a dab is easily 1/100th of the 8000IU caplet.

 

[ChromaChameleons]

If your cham's eye issue is vit A deficiency , you don't have to rush to get the vit A levels back up immediately. Safer to ease toward it slowly. Keep in mind , it may not be a Vit A deficiency. If you go too fast with the corrective supplementation, you could blow out the liver!

 

[ChromaChameleons]

At 40 g, you want to dose 5-11 IU per day, but you need to account for other sources of preform Vit A in the diet. that includes any powder supplements , type of insects and feeder gutload. Better to ease into it slowly.

 

[jannb]

He did not seem to be much of an expert on chameleons in specific. He did know a lot about reptiles in general, though. There is another vet in the area but I don't think they had a lot of experience either. I will drive if I need to, but I'd like to see if I can learn from the expereince of people here before I go that route.

I'm not sure if I should continue with vitamin A treatment, try infection treatment, or take him to the vet again. The eye hasn't really changed since I took him in, except for the cloudy discharge.

Where can I buy those products, jannb?

Terramycin you can buy here and I think you have to get Gentamicin from your vet.
http://www.jefferspet.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=0&pf_id=229

 

[KingJulien]

At 40 g, you want to dose 5-11 IU per day, but you need to account for other sources of preform Vit A in the diet. that includes any powder supplements , type of insects and feeder gutload. Better to ease into it slowly.

Oh! 1-2 IU per week, not daily. Ok, I will try to just keep with the vit A for another week and see if it improves.

 

[KingJulien]

Terramycin you can buy here and I think you have to get Gentamicin from your vet.
http://www.jefferspet.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=0&pf_id=229

They had it on backorder, so I went ahead and ordered from LLL. Hopefully the vitamin A will work, but if not, I will use this.

Do you know how often and for how long I will need to use it?

 

[jessica]

They had it on backorder, so I went ahead and ordered from LLL. Hopefully the vitamin A will work, but if not, I will use this.

Do you know how often and for how long I will need to use it?

I would just call the vet you seen and see if they will sell you some Gentamicin drops. Sometimes ointment can build up in the turret.

 

[KingJulien]

I would just call the vet you seen and see if they will sell you some Gentamicin drops. Sometimes ointment can build up in the turret.

Thanks, I will try that. It would be quicker than waiting for the ointment to ship.

 

[KingJulien]

Vet says he needs to see him, it could be fungal or something else. Not sure if he's just trying to make a buck, but I would hate for him to go blind or worse. I will just get him some saliene and use that until our appointment at 4.

Thanks everyone for your help.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Vet says he needs to see him, it could be fungal or something else. Not sure if he's just trying to make a buck, but I would hate for him to go blind or worse. I will just get him some saliene and use that until our appointment at 4.

Thanks everyone for your help.

I have a bit of familiarity working with Vitamin A and eye issues

You mention that there was a discharge from the eye. While many eye issues begin with a vitamin A deficiencly, the weakening of the membranes then allow infections to set in. Just the Vitamin A deficiency by itself will not cause a discharge, so something else may be at work now. It does not mean to stop the vitamin A, but you may have two things to address, not one.

Did the vet show you how to rinse-clean the eye ? Get a bottle of eye wash for humans at the drug store. Usually $5-6 for a 4 oz plastic bottle. It may come with a hole in the end, or you may have to puncture it, but they are made so that the rinse can be dripped out, or squeezed out as in a fine jet-stream.

Chameleon won't like this. Grab it behind the head, then hold it head-downward. This is so that you do not accumulate water in its mouth. Holding the bottle 2-3" away from the affected eye, jet the spray right into the turret. This will cause it to balloon up a bit. Continue the spray so that it balloons for 2-3 seconds. Stop, and they eye will drain out. Repeat 1-2 times. All done. Then apply any meds for that day. Scott Stahl showed me this technique in the flesh years ago. It helps with any eye irritation, but is not a cure.

If you see your vet again, mention this technique, or print it and take it with you. Vets usually have loads of eye wash, and you two might do it right then.

Good luck.

 

[KingJulien]

Wow, I just went to the drug store and picked up some saliene, thinking I could moisten his eye (it looked really dry on the surface) and make him comfortable until his visit at the vet. I held him over the sink, and dripped the saliene onto his eye, avoiding his nose. After a little while, a white cloudy layer seperated from his eyeball and when he opened up his eye again, he looked so much better! He was looking around and seeing things better, too.


So, what do you guys think? Am I safe to continue the baytril and vitamin A and forget about the trip to the vet? He looks so much better, I think so.

 

[KingJulien]

I have a bit of familiarity working with Vitamin A and eye issues

You mention that there was a discharge from the eye. While many eye issues begin with a vitamin A deficiencly, the weakening of the membranes then allow infections to set in. Just the Vitamin A deficiency by itself will not cause a discharge, so something else may be at work now. It does not mean to stop the vitamin A, but you may have two things to address, not one.

Did the vet show you how to rinse-clean the eye ? Get a bottle of eye wash for humans at the drug store. Usually $5-6 for a 4 oz plastic bottle. It may come with a hole in the end, or you may have to puncture it, but they are made so that the rinse can be dripped out, or squeezed out as in a fine jet-stream.

Chameleon won't like this. Grab it behind the head, then hold it head-downward. This is so that you do not accumulate water in its mouth. Holding the bottle 2-3" away from the affected eye, jet the spray right into the turret. This will cause it to balloon up a bit. Continue the spray so that it balloons for 2-3 seconds. Stop, and they eye will drain out. Repeat 1-2 times. All done. Then apply any meds for that day. Scott Stahl showed me this technique in the flesh years ago. It helps with any eye irritation, but is not a cure.

If you see your vet again, mention this technique, or print it and take it with you. Vets usually have loads of eye wash, and you two might do it right then.

Good luck.

Thanks so much, it turns out he really did need a good rinse! I didn't have to jet it into his eye, I just dripped it over the opening and it worked great! Do you think maybe he just had a protein build up in there because of the vit A deficiency? I read that in another thread. Could he have an infection as well, considering he is on baytril? I'm no expert, by any measure! What would you do from here?

 

[Chameleon Company]

Thanks so much, it turns out he really did need a good rinse! I didn't have to jet it into his eye, I just dripped it over the opening and it worked great! Do you think maybe he just had a protein build up in there because of the vit A deficiency? I read that in another thread. Could he have an infection as well, considering he is on baytril? I'm no expert, by any measure! What would you do from here?

The baytril may help to fight an eye infection, although it may not be direct or specific enough. I would continue with the eye rinse, and I do suggest you jet it in, as it will truly flush out the eye. Scott Stahl is one of the top reptile vets in the country, and the method was exactly as I described. Jet it in, causing it to balloon up, and then drain out.

If things get worse, then a return to the vet is a must. But if it improves, then it is your call, as I am sympathetic to the expenses involved. Depending on the extent and length of the deficiency, vitamin A supplementation can sometimes show in provement in 3-4 days, and sometimes a couple weeks in worse cases. Have helped hundreds of keepers with animals at both ends, and have had instances where the chameleons recovered when I was inclined to believe they were too far gone.

 

[KingJulien]

The baytril may help to fight an eye infection, although it may not be direct or specific enough. I would continue with the eye rinse, and I do suggest you jet it in, as it will truly flush out the eye. Scott Stahl is one of the top reptile vets in the country, and the method was exactly as I described. Jet it in, causing it to balloon up, and then drain out.

If things get worse, then a return to the vet is a must. But if it improves, then it is your call, as I am sympathetic to the expenses involved. Depending on the extent and length of the deficiency, vitamin A supplementation can sometimes show in provement in 3-4 days, and sometimes a couple weeks in worse cases. Have helped hundreds of keepers with animals at both ends, and have had instances where the chameleons recovered when I was inclined to believe they were too far gone.

Thanks so much for the advice. I'm glad to hear I'm not crazy for not wanting to take him in. It's not only the expense that bothers me, it's the stress and the possibility that the vet can't do anything to help. If this is purely a vitamin A deficiency then all he can do is tell me to keep supplementing, and my poor cham will have gone for a needless trip to the vet.

If he's not looking perfect again in a week I will go to the vet, but I'm thinking now that he just needs some time to chill out in the sun and rest. He's looking good and hiding from me in his plants today.

I'll try a rinse like you described this evening if he looks cloudy again, or tomorrow morning when I've got him out for his baytril.

 

[ChromaChameleons]

Be clear if you are avoiding a return vet visit because of a) not wanting to spend the money, b) not wanting to stress your cham further or c) you are losing confidence in your vet .

If your apprehension is c) , then consider finding another vet .

 

[KingJulien]

Be clear if you are avoiding a return vet visit because of a) not wanting to spend the money, b) not wanting to stress your cham further or c) you are losing confidence in your vet .

If your apprehension is c) , then consider finding another vet .

I think it's all three. I think you have a good point though, I'll find another vet.