Am I going crazy?!

[herbiethechameleon]

hi everyone! It’s been a minute since I’ve posted in this forum! All of you are the best chameleon people so I wanted to run some things by this group of amazing people to see if there is anything going on. Herbie is my panther chameleon that I’ve had for almost 2 years and I feel like a helicopter parent because Im always a bit stressed about his behavior. After running over some husbandry with you guys everything seemed fine on my end and I took him to one of the best visiting herpetologists at UGA to run some bloodwork in June of last year. Overall his bloodwork was fine but they suggested it was possibly the beginning of renal failure so to up all his humidity. So I did that for a while and things seemed to get better! I got him some insurance and he started acting a bit weird again and I took him to an exotic vet who ran some bloodwork in November and all of his bloodwork improved which was great (and at this point I’m just convinced I’m crazy) but I took pictures of his weird behavior and they all agreed that something is not exactly right but bloodwork and fecal seem to be perfect. He stopped acting weird miraculously after and then today I caught him with his eyes closed towards the bottom on his enclosure (tail not curled) and I’m just at a loss here. I feel like he is just not feeling well and I don’t know what could be wrong and I’ve really tried everything! He seems to have trouble getting his food (he doesn’t shoot his tongue out very far to get it) and he seems fatigued overall. Any advice or ideas what may be going on?

 

[GrannyK]

Hi there! Sooo sorry you’re having this. I’m no expert just a keeper brainstorming but when is the last time his uvb bulb was changed, do you use a solar meter by chance and are his supplements possibly expired or what supplements do you use?

 

[herbiethechameleon]

Do supplements expire? Maybe that’s what has been going on. I’ve been using the same reptivite supplements since I got him!

 

[CalamityCrow]

Do supplements expire? Maybe that’s what has been going on. I’ve been using the same reptivite supplements since I got him!

THey absolutely expire. They lose potency after roughly a year. I'd replace them and see if that helps. Make sure your UVB is fresh as well.

 

[herbiethechameleon]

THey absolutely expire. They lose potency after roughly a year. I'd replace them and see if that helps. Make sure your UVB is fresh as well.

I know his uvb is good because I replaced it only 2 months ago so that should be fine still, but I’ll replace his vitamins asap and see if that does anything

 

[CalamityCrow]

I know his uvb is good because I replaced it only 2 months ago so that should be fine still, but I’ll replace his vitamins asap and see if that does anything

I'd urge a vet visit though if you can. Eyes closed at the bottom of the enclosure are pretty hefty signs of something not going well. :/

 

[herbiethechameleon]

I'd urge a vet visit though if you can. Eyes closed at the bottom of the enclosure are pretty hefty signs of something not going well. :/

The thing is, whenever I take him to the vet I feel like it stresses him out so much and last time we went he got bloodwork done and actually fell from a branch after because he was so stressed. Everytime I take him to the vet because he starts to act like this, they run bloodwork and then say he’s fine so I just feel like it’s doing more harm than good for him. He just got lab work done only 2 months ago and everything was fine!

 

[CalamityCrow]

The thing is, whenever I take him to the vet I feel like it stresses him out so much and last time we went he got bloodwork done and actually fell from a branch after because he was so stressed. Everytime I take him to the vet because he starts to act like this, they run bloodwork and then say he’s fine so I just feel like it’s doing more harm than good for him. He just got lab work done only 2 months ago and everything was fine!

Yeah it can be pretty stressful. It's tough because they hide their illnesses SO well. You know your pet better than any of us though - use your best judgement for what you choose.

 

[MissSkittles]

Can you post some clear pics of him and the whole enclosure?

 

[Beman]

hi everyone! It’s been a minute since I’ve posted in this forum! All of you are the best chameleon people so I wanted to run some things by this group of amazing people to see if there is anything going on. Herbie is my panther chameleon that I’ve had for almost 2 years and I feel like a helicopter parent because Im always a bit stressed about his behavior. After running over some husbandry with you guys everything seemed fine on my end and I took him to one of the best visiting herpetologists at UGA to run some bloodwork in June of last year. Overall his bloodwork was fine but they suggested it was possibly the beginning of renal failure so to up all his humidity. So I did that for a while and things seemed to get better! I got him some insurance and he started acting a bit weird again and I took him to an exotic vet who ran some bloodwork in November and all of his bloodwork improved which was great (and at this point I’m just convinced I’m crazy) but I took pictures of his weird behavior and they all agreed that something is not exactly right but bloodwork and fecal seem to be perfect. He stopped acting weird miraculously after and then today I caught him with his eyes closed towards the bottom on his enclosure (tail not curled) and I’m just at a loss here. I feel like he is just not feeling well and I don’t know what could be wrong and I’ve really tried everything! He seems to have trouble getting his food (he doesn’t shoot his tongue out very far to get it) and he seems fatigued overall. Any advice or ideas what may be going on?

When you say you increased all his humidity. Where are your daytime and night time humidity levels sitting now? How are you increasing it? What are your day time and night time ambient temps?

I agree with posting pics of everything. And getting new supplements. If you are needing to replace the reptivite with D3 I would highly suggest switching this one out for repashy calcium plus LoD version. It is a better multivitamin supplement and they do not add phosphorus to it the way reptivite does.

 

[kinyonga]

Please post some photos of your chameleon and the cage. Have you moved the cage or changed the position of things inside the cage?

How did they say upping the humidity would help the renal failure, if that’s what’s wrong it’s him?

 

[herbiethechameleon]

Hi everyone! So sorry for the late response, usually I get an email telling me people have responded to the post but I didn’t get any this time (so I assumed no one else looked at it). It’s past 1 am here so I will take a picture of everything tomorrow and see what you guys think. I want to add that the day after I posted, I bought new reptivitamins and gave it on some gut loaded crickets and then the next day I actually caught him fully sleeping with his tail curled in his sleep spot (which I’ve never seen him do). So naturally I’m a bit worried now. I’m in Atlanta and we are on snow/winter storm watch and universities have closed etc so I’m not sure what the vets are going to do, but I will send pictures first thing tomorrow.

 

[herbiethechameleon]

Please post some photos of your chameleon and the cage. Have you moved the cage or changed the position of things inside the cage?

How did they say upping the humidity would help the renal failure, if that’s what’s wrong it’s him?

They said he may be in the beginning stages of renal failure but they weren’t sure and so to bring his humidity to 100% or more at night to help with hydration. And I did move the cage about a month ago and put in all brand new plants since his old ones were infested with spider mites.

 

[herbiethechameleon]

When you say you increased all his humidity. Where are your daytime and night time humidity levels sitting now? How are you increasing it? What are your day time and night time ambient temps?

I agree with posting pics of everything. And getting new supplements. If you are needing to replace the reptivite with D3 I would highly suggest switching this one out for repashy calcium plus LoD version. It is a better multivitamin supplement and they do not add phosphorus to it the way reptivite does.

Oh darn wish I would have seen this before I went to buy! I’ll probably get the version you listed anyways instead. I use a fogger at night for 100% humidity and then it’s about 60% during the day. I have misters go off 3x per day (2 mins at 7 am, 1 min at noon because he seems to have difficulty drinking water, and then 2 mins again around 5). Ambient temps are 72 daytime and night time temps are really mostly the same since we live in a studio right now and keep the temperature the same in the house.

 

[herbiethechameleon]

Here is his enclosure, and this is where he hangs out

 

[Beman]

Oh darn wish I would have seen this before I went to buy! I’ll probably get the version you listed anyways instead. I use a fogger at night for 100% humidity and then it’s about 60% during the day. I have misters go off 3x per day (2 mins at 7 am, 1 min at noon because he seems to have difficulty drinking water, and then 2 mins again around 5). Ambient temps are 72 daytime and night time temps are really mostly the same since we live in a studio right now and keep the temperature the same in the house.

Ok so I hate to tell you this. But you should never fog when your temps are sitting as high as yours are. It really needs to be at least below 67-68. They do even better with more of a temp drop so reducing ambient to at least 65 while fogging is more ideal. The issue with fogging in warmer temps is that they are breathing in warm wet air which can actually give them respiratory infections. This is not found when temps are much cooler though.

Humidity at night with foggers also requires air movement so your really looking for 80% or higher with cold temps and air movement.

Daytime humidity again you have the same risk when it is sitting too high. Which 60% would be on the higher end. Daytime ambient humidity for a panther should sit 40-50%. Yes it can spike after a misting but it should be leveled out during the day to the 40-50% range.

I would remove that noon misting due to your humidity levels. You do not want to add moisture when you are adding all the heat from the lights mid day. You instead would add a dripper to the cage to provide a slow drip. You can do this with a plastic solo cup and a few tiny pin holes in the bottom. Add ice cubes to the cup set on the top of the cage screen so it drips on plant leaves below.

What panels of your cage are open screen besides the top?

you do not have very many branches from what I can see on the top level. If you are using a 6% UVB bulb you need branches set up directly below the UVB bulb position 8-9 inches down. This puts them in the correct UVI. I can not tell exactly how you have yours positioned but if they do not fit this and are lower then he is not getting the UVB he needs.

 

[herbiethechameleon]

Thanks for all of the information, there are a lot of branches that sort of wind in and around all the plants but I could definitely add in a bit more. For UV measures, is there a specific brand you suggest to get?

 

[Beman]

Thanks for all of the information, there are a lot of branches that sort of wind in and around all the plants but I could definitely add in a bit more. For UV measures, is there a specific brand you suggest to get?

Solarmeter 6.5 to measure you UVI levels. They are pricey but worth it for the peace of mind. Rough distances like I said before to get that 3 UVI at basking branch would be a 8-9 inch distance from branch to the screen where the fixture sits on top. This would be for a 5.0 or 6% T5HO bulb. If using something different I would just need that info.

 

[herbiethechameleon]

Solarmeter 6.5 to measure you UVI levels. They are pricey but worth it for the peace of mind. Rough distances like I said before to get that 3 UVI at basking branch would be a 8-9 inch distance from branch to the screen where the fixture sits on top. This would be for a 5.0 or 6% T5HO bulb. If using something different I would just need that info.

I believe it’s the Arcadia 6% I’ll need to double check, but do you think his behavior could solely be because of UV?

 

[Beman]

I believe it’s the Arcadia 6% I’ll need to double check, but do you think his behavior could solely be because of UV?

Yes because your UVB bulb also produces UVA. UVA light wavelengths regulate everything from appetite to activity and mating behaviors. UVB wavelengths allows for natural D3 synthesis in the body. When this is off their body will actually pull calcium from the bones to try to compensate. You can see this also when supplementation is wrong. So having the UVI at a 3ish level is what you are looking for. UVI is the index measurement of the bulb pertaining to the UVB output.

If your distance is too far away he is not able to get close enough to get what he needs. This includes if your highest basking branches are covered by plants so that they block the light he gets on the branch. This lighting does not penetrate through plants the same. The plants reduce the output. So in a cage top basking needs to be unobstructed then as they move down into the plants the UVI reduces naturally the same way it does in the wild.

Then if UVI is too high you can have health issues as well. So this is where stronger bulbs can be a major health risk if the distance to the branch is not adjusted to reduce exposure levels.