About selling neonate chams

I hope this is OK. This is in response to a thread on this forum that was closed this morning. But I really feel that I have something to contribute, so here goes.

We have years of experience breeding and hatching chameleons. Not nearly as many years as others on this forum, but enough years to know what a humbling experience it can be. Every hatchling is a little miracle to me. And every baby that pips but never makes it out of the egg alive is a frustrating mystery. And every clutch that thrives during the first 6 weeks and then gradually, one by one, drops dead, is a crushing defeat. You try changing the lighting, changing the diet, changing the misting procedure, changing the cages, separating them all to individual cages, etc., etc.

Our most difficult clutches have been the pure Nosy Faly and also Azure's Ambanja offspring. I have spoken to other (not all) breeders of Nosy Faly and have found that they, too, have difficulty with clutch survival. Nature rules. We fumble.

I will be honest with you. I was tempted recently by the ad offering multiples of fresh bloodline tiny Nosy Faly babies (in the U.S.) at a great price. But then I had to remind myself. Two weeks out of the egg alive doesn't guarantee 3 weeks out of the egg alive. One month doesn't guarantee two months. Three and four months out of the egg, however, gives you pretty good odds.

We had Azure ambanja babies hatch late last year:

At one month old we had about 30 of them successfully hatched from 2 clutches. If I had sold them at one month old I would have made between $5,000 and $7,500. Maybe more. People emailed and called us almost every day about them.

Then the losses began. And the struggle to discover why and to try to solve the problem. Researching others' experiences on this forum. Talking to folks on the phone. To no avail. If I had sold the remainder at 2 months old (and believe me we had people offering to take them that young) I would have made between $3750 and $5000.

Now, at 3 months old, we sold none and have only 1 left surviving. A female. She looks good. Fat and hardy. I will keep her, at least for a while, to see how she does. So, I went from $7,500 to $0. We had a similar experience with Nosy Faly offspring.

Did I cry, did I lose sleep? Yes. But not over the money. It was about lifting lifeless bodies off cage bottoms. It was about searching through branches and vines only to find one more limp form draped over a twig. It was about husbandry. Bad husbandry, good husbandry, wrong husbandry? So many tiny dead babies. It was about having to tell our customers that there are no male Azure offspring available anymore. After they patiently waited 3 months.

I'm glad they waited 3 months. Would some babies survived if we had sold and shipped them to customers sooner? Maybe. Who knows. But I doubt it. Azure died unexpectedly right after fathering these 2 clutches. Maybe there was something amiss.

So many variables. This is not for the faint of heart.
 
That was very honest of you to post. I'm glad that our sponsors have the heart to not sell babies that will most likely end up dying. Especially, if it's a chameleon type that has proven hard to raise. It must be hard. I'm sorry about all those loses.:(
 
Sandy your experience is so humbling to someone like me. Sometimes I think I know what I am doing. You are such a professional and caring chameleon keeper. You are to me what all breeders should strive to be. That includes people like me who may only breed a clutch every other year. What a standard you set for all of us to work toward. Thank you.
 
I have always loved my Azure, baby girl but now she seems a little more precious. Thanks for caring so much about theses little guys, and sharing with the rest of us.:)
 
Awww damn my heart just broke. I was all excited when I got my name on that list and was eagerly anticipating the day Sandy said they would be availble (sometime next week) and I could have my own Azure male. What a very sad story, so sorry Elliot and Sandra

Kyle
 
thanks sandy well said... also i have my azure male an hes doin awesome..

Hi, Robbie. Yours is from a much earlier clutch. Glad to hear he is doing so well. And thank you everyone for your kind words. Azure was a teddy bear, in addition to being beautiful, and will always be one of my favorites.

Awww damn my heart just broke. I was all excited when I got my name on that list and was eagerly anticipating the day Sandy said they would be availble (sometime next week) and I could have my own Azure male. What a very sad story, so sorry Elliot and Sandra

Kyle

My apologies, Kyle. I didn't get everyone on the list contacted yesterday concerning the clutch status. When I posted this today I was afraid some of our customers would find out through this thread, which wasn't really how I wanted to break the news to the patient folks on our waiting list.
 
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Aww

I had two beardies die with their heads sticking out of the egg today idk why so sad the others made it though. Anyway yeah if someone sells a cham at a young age try should tell the buyer that there's a chance they could die...a guy at a expo I went too said that to me that these guys are little but I brought them because maybe someone will want to take their chances with them. If u disclose the risk I don't see the problem maybe them housing the cham alone and with more individual attention it may be better off.
 
hi again sandy figured id post a pic of my azure boy for you, he is very laid bk an doesnt fire up for much but when he does the colors really come out just havent really cause it yet..
2-12-2-11008.jpg

lil off subject but ya havent seen him forever...
 
I hope this is OK. This is in response to a thread on this forum that was closed this morning. But I really feel that I have something to contribute, so here goes.

We have years of experience breeding and hatching chameleons. Not nearly as many years as others on this forum, but enough years to know what a humbling experience it can be. Every hatchling is a little miracle to me. And every baby that pips but never makes it out of the egg alive is a frustrating mystery. And every clutch that thrives during the first 6 weeks and then gradually, one by one, drops dead, is a crushing defeat. You try changing the lighting, changing the diet, changing the misting procedure, changing the cages, separating them all to individual cages, etc., etc.

Our most difficult clutches have been the pure Nosy Faly and also Azure's Ambanja offspring. I have spoken to other (not all) breeders of Nosy Faly and have found that they, too, have difficulty with clutch survival. Nature rules. We fumble.

I will be honest with you. I was tempted recently by the ad offering multiples of fresh bloodline tiny Nosy Faly babies (in the U.S.) at a great price. But then I had to remind myself. Two weeks out of the egg alive doesn't guarantee 3 weeks out of the egg alive. One month doesn't guarantee two months. Three and four months out of the egg, however, gives you pretty good odds.

We had Azure ambanja babies hatch late last year:

At one month old we had about 30 of them successfully hatched from 2 clutches. If I had sold them at one month old I would have made between $5,000 and $7,500. Maybe more. People emailed and called us almost every day about them.

Then the losses began. And the struggle to discover why and to try to solve the problem. Researching others' experiences on this forum. Talking to folks on the phone. To no avail. If I had sold the remainder at 2 months old (and believe me we had people offering to take them that young) I would have made between $3750 and $5000.

Now, at 3 months old, we sold none and have only 1 left surviving. A female. She looks good. Fat and hardy. I will keep her, at least for a while, to see how she does. So, I went from $7,500 to $0. We had a similar experience with Nosy Faly offspring.

Did I cry, did I lose sleep? Yes. But not over the money. It was about lifting lifeless bodies off cage bottoms. It was about searching through branches and vines only to find one more limp form draped over a twig. It was about husbandry. Bad husbandry, good husbandry, wrong husbandry? So many tiny dead babies. It was about having to tell our customers that there are no male Azure offspring available anymore. After they patiently waited 3 months.

I'm glad they waited 3 months. Would some babies survived if we had sold and shipped them to customers sooner? Maybe. Who knows. But I doubt it. Azure died unexpectedly right after fathering these 2 clutches. Maybe there was something amiss.

So many variables. This is not for the faint of heart.

That was the realest post I have ever read.
Thanks for sharing such an honest perspective.
 
You win some, you lose some. Thats the reality of breeding anything. I have watched whole clutches go 9 months and never even hatch but maybe 2 or 3 and then them not even make it.
 
I hope this is OK. This is in response to a thread on this forum that was closed this morning. But I really feel that I have something to contribute, so here goes.

We have years of experience breeding and hatching chameleons. Not nearly as many years as others on this forum, but enough years to know what a humbling experience it can be. Every hatchling is a little miracle to me. And every baby that pips but never makes it out of the egg alive is a frustrating mystery. And every clutch that thrives during the first 6 weeks and then gradually, one by one, drops dead, is a crushing defeat. You try changing the lighting, changing the diet, changing the misting procedure, changing the cages, separating them all to individual cages, etc., etc.

Our most difficult clutches have been the pure Nosy Faly and also Azure's Ambanja offspring. I have spoken to other (not all) breeders of Nosy Faly and have found that they, too, have difficulty with clutch survival. Nature rules. We fumble.

I will be honest with you. I was tempted recently by the ad offering multiples of fresh bloodline tiny Nosy Faly babies (in the U.S.) at a great price. But then I had to remind myself. Two weeks out of the egg alive doesn't guarantee 3 weeks out of the egg alive. One month doesn't guarantee two months. Three and four months out of the egg, however, gives you pretty good odds.

We had Azure ambanja babies hatch late last year:

At one month old we had about 30 of them successfully hatched from 2 clutches. If I had sold them at one month old I would have made between $5,000 and $7,500. Maybe more. People emailed and called us almost every day about them.

Then the losses began. And the struggle to discover why and to try to solve the problem. Researching others' experiences on this forum. Talking to folks on the phone. To no avail. If I had sold the remainder at 2 months old (and believe me we had people offering to take them that young) I would have made between $3750 and $5000.

Now, at 3 months old, we sold none and have only 1 left surviving. A female. She looks good. Fat and hardy. I will keep her, at least for a while, to see how she does. So, I went from $7,500 to $0. We had a similar experience with Nosy Faly offspring.

Did I cry, did I lose sleep? Yes. But not over the money. It was about lifting lifeless bodies off cage bottoms. It was about searching through branches and vines only to find one more limp form draped over a twig. It was about husbandry. Bad husbandry, good husbandry, wrong husbandry? So many tiny dead babies. It was about having to tell our customers that there are no male Azure offspring available anymore. After they patiently waited 3 months.

I'm glad they waited 3 months. Would some babies survived if we had sold and shipped them to customers sooner? Maybe. Who knows. But I doubt it. Azure died unexpectedly right after fathering these 2 clutches. Maybe there was something amiss.

So many variables. This is not for the faint of heart.

I did not see the original thread, as it came down quick, and understand that our name was in it as well, put there by a n'ere-do-well with no clue.

The above experience that you relate is a tough one. The only times we have seen results such as that, (barring husbandry lapses, usually with folks not used to raising small ones) where a good portion of the animals made it past the first couple weeks, but then not the couple months or so, were with inbreeds, such as brother to sister pairings, etc. We acknowledge that some clutches hatch weak from the beginning, runts even as neonates, often succumbing in days. We have never done line-breeding on purpose, but it has happened here by accident. I have no idea if that was even a possible factor for you. I imagine you have had many more successful experiences as well.

Without going into specific anecdotal evidence, our track record here is that over 90% of all hatch make it to sellable size. That being 6" total length minimum. We therefor have a very high degree of confidence in healthy neonates.

Whether or not someone wants to sell or buy at neonate size is up to them. The risks are higher, and one would expect a lower price to pay, ie. the price should be in line with the risk. Even if offered as slightly larger animals, a legitimate continuing risk is demonstrated by the number of vendors who have sold such as young, not-yet-colored-up Faly's in the last few years, often at prices above $400 each, only to have them grow up as hybrids. The internet is now littered with folks showing their "Nosy Faly" adult that is as hybrid as the sky is blue ! Only not so blue. How many refunds were issued as the price seemed to not represent the actual risk ? Probably not too many, as those hybrid animals are in many cases still represented not only as Nosy Faly, but now as breeding stock.

Selling neonates is nothing new either. Whether via internet, or at shows, its been out there. I agree whole-heartedly with the "not for the faint of heart", but also felt the issue needed a little more light on it. Trust too that I am sure that your neonate husbandry is good. I do get questions often enough from hobbyists with their first clutches though, that often have serious husbandry shortcomings. Good luck with all.
 
I did not see the original thread, as it came down quick, and understand that our name was in it as well, put there by a n'ere-do-well with no clue.

The above experience that you relate is a tough one. The only times we have seen results such as that, (barring husbandry lapses, usually with folks not used to raising small ones) where a good portion of the animals made it past the first couple weeks, but then not the couple months or so, were with inbreeds, such as brother to sister pairings, etc. We acknowledge that some clutches hatch weak from the beginning, runts even as neonates, often succumbing in days. We have never done line-breeding on purpose, but it has happened here by accident. I have no idea if that was even a possible factor for you. I imagine you have had many more successful experiences as well.

Without going into specific anecdotal evidence, our track record here is that over 90% of all hatch make it to sellable size. That being 6" total length minimum. We therefor have a very high degree of confidence in healthy neonates.

Whether or not someone wants to sell or buy at neonate size is up to them. The risks are higher, and one would expect a lower price to pay, ie. the price should be in line with the risk. Even if offered as slightly larger animals, a legitimate continuing risk is demonstrated by the number of vendors who have sold such as young, not-yet-colored-up Faly's in the last few years, often at prices above $400 each, only to have them grow up as hybrids. The internet is now littered with folks showing their "Nosy Faly" adult that is as hybrid as the sky is blue ! Only not so blue. How many refunds were issued as the price seemed to not represent the actual risk ? Probably not too many, as those hybrid animals are in many cases still represented not only as Nosy Faly, but now as breeding stock.

Selling neonates is nothing new either. Whether via internet, or at shows, its been out there. I agree whole-heartedly with the "not for the faint of heart", but also felt the issue needed a little more light on it. Trust too that I am sure that your neonate husbandry is good. I do get questions often enough from hobbyists with their first clutches though, that often have serious husbandry shortcomings. Good luck with all.

Thank you for your input, Jim. You have a very good reputation.

One clutch of the Nosy Faly eggs were purchased as eggs from Pam's Chams Triton line, and another clutch from Pam was from a WC female Faly that came in gravid. I can't speak for whether any of those parents were related. The Azure Ambanja offspring, however, were sired by Azure (he was originally from BLue Beast Reptiles I believe- before they went tortoise). The Ambanja dam was hatched and raised by Pardalisgirl and was several years younger than Azure. It is unlikely they were related at all.

We normally do well with our Amblilobe and Sambava clutches. But have never done particularly well with Faly or Ambanja.

I need to fly down and visit your setup and get some lessons from you. I am actually at least half serious about that.
 
Well spoken- And a good lesson for the amateur chameleon breeders out there, who think, 'hey, I'll breed chameleons and sell them for extra income.' QUALITY BREEDING IS NOT EASY. DON'T TRY IT UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING!. Sorry for yelling. :)
Dr Ren (Vet)
 
I would like to start by saying I am sorry about your loss and it is certainly a sad story. I have kept and bred many different animals, everything from fish to birds to various reptiles and even sugar gliders. I have enjoyed all of my experiences and have certainly learned from all of my mistakes. I use to be the type of person who would have died to keep parsons or some other type of difficult chameleon, while they are beautiful animals reading Martin Moe's "The Marine Aquarium Handbook" has made me realize the true price of the animals that we keep. He discusses the keeping of the more exotic and rare fish, he reasons that these animals really aren't much more then any other animal, you just have to factor in the multitudes that died in transport or shortly after arrival. I don't harbor any ill will tor-ward's those that keep such animals, I just can't in good conscious purchase an animal knowing that it may have been the only one of six or seven that made it through import or birth or whatever the case may be. I have to agree with moe, with such a plethora of wonderful beautiful established animals at our hands why continue to attempt to cultivate these more fragile animals?
 
Thank you for your input, Jim. You have a very good reputation.

One clutch of the Nosy Faly eggs were purchased as eggs from Pam's Chams Triton line, and another clutch from Pam was from a WC female Faly that came in gravid. I can't speak for whether any of those parents were related. The Azure Ambanja offspring, however, were sired by Azure (he was originally from BLue Beast Reptiles I believe- before they went tortoise). The Ambanja dam was hatched and raised by Pardalisgirl and was several years younger than Azure. It is unlikely they were related at all.

We normally do well with our Amblilobe and Sambava clutches. But have never done particularly well with Faly or Ambanja.

I need to fly down and visit your setup and get some lessons from you. I am actually at least half serious about that.

Heck. I was throwing it out there as a possibility, as the situation you described was unusual to us, that being hatchlings that went well for at least a few weeks, but then the die-off. Usually, weak clutches never amount to anything.

There is no doubt that Florida weather, and our ability to get real sun on the animals all year round, is a huge advantage. Unfortunately, that is just not possible for many hobbyists.

If I had to pick the biggest husbandry issues with neonates that we are aware of, they are:

1) Food. We see fruit flies on formula as a poor bug to use. You cannot gutload them. We raise our own crickets here, and our young are raised exclusively on free-range 1/8" crickets. Pinheads are too small, but to be certain, we mean true as in "put one on a ruler" 1/8" crickets. When the weather is right, grass flies gotten via bug net are good.

2) Water. Soak them good. Rain them, don't mist them. Have it so that 30 minutes after you water them, there are still large drops everywhere. You want it to dry out after a couple hours, usually done with moving air. Soak them twice a day.

I am putting this here for the hobbyists who may have yet to hatch their first clutch, or have stuggled with what hatch they've had. Good luck with all.
 
I hope this is OK. This is in response to a thread on this forum that was closed this morning. But I really feel that I have something to contribute, so here goes.

We have years of experience breeding and hatching chameleons. Not nearly as many years as others on this forum, but enough years to know what a humbling experience it can be. Every hatchling is a little miracle to me. And every baby that pips but never makes it out of the egg alive is a frustrating mystery. And every clutch that thrives during the first 6 weeks and then gradually, one by one, drops dead, is a crushing defeat. You try changing the lighting, changing the diet, changing the misting procedure, changing the cages, separating them all to individual cages, etc., etc.

Our most difficult clutches have been the pure Nosy Faly and also Azure's Ambanja offspring. I have spoken to other (not all) breeders of Nosy Faly and have found that they, too, have difficulty with clutch survival. Nature rules. We fumble.

I will be honest with you. I was tempted recently by the ad offering multiples of fresh bloodline tiny Nosy Faly babies (in the U.S.) at a great price. But then I had to remind myself. Two weeks out of the egg alive doesn't guarantee 3 weeks out of the egg alive. One month doesn't guarantee two months. Three and four months out of the egg, however, gives you pretty good odds.

We had Azure ambanja babies hatch late last year:

At one month old we had about 30 of them successfully hatched from 2 clutches. If I had sold them at one month old I would have made between $5,000 and $7,500. Maybe more. People emailed and called us almost every day about them.

Then the losses began. And the struggle to discover why and to try to solve the problem. Researching others' experiences on this forum. Talking to folks on the phone. To no avail. If I had sold the remainder at 2 months old (and believe me we had people offering to take them that young) I would have made between $3750 and $5000.

Now, at 3 months old, we sold none and have only 1 left surviving. A female. She looks good. Fat and hardy. I will keep her, at least for a while, to see how she does. So, I went from $7,500 to $0. We had a similar experience with Nosy Faly offspring.

Did I cry, did I lose sleep? Yes. But not over the money. It was about lifting lifeless bodies off cage bottoms. It was about searching through branches and vines only to find one more limp form draped over a twig. It was about husbandry. Bad husbandry, good husbandry, wrong husbandry? So many tiny dead babies. It was about having to tell our customers that there are no male Azure offspring available anymore. After they patiently waited 3 months.

I'm glad they waited 3 months. Would some babies survived if we had sold and shipped them to customers sooner? Maybe. Who knows. But I doubt it. Azure died unexpectedly right after fathering these 2 clutches. Maybe there was something amiss.

So many variables. This is not for the faint of heart.

I'm pretty sure I know the exact cham your speaking of... I was watching & waiting anxiously to see his offspring. The purple barred Ambanja cham, right?!?! I went looking for him just today (actually about an hour ago) & saw that there wasn't a picture of him anymore. It was puzzling because I thought if all the babies were sold then the picture would be there w/ sold next to it. He was one fantastic cham, sooo sorry to hear that you lost him & all of the babies but just one. That is gonna be one special little girl!!! Again it's very sad to hear about such a loss, so heartbreaking. I wish you all the best w/ his little girl!
 
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