12% UVB = no calcium with D3?

[Brodybreaux25]

As a general rule, I believe very little I see on Facebook. But I saw this from a somewhat well known Cham keeper, Nathalie Norris. She was recently on episode 81 of the Chameleon Breeder Podcast.

UVB lighting is definitely my weak spot when it comes to husbandry so I’d like to hear how others feel about this. To sum it up she basically says :
1- all veild chameleons require 12% UVB
2- if you are using 12% UVB no calcium supplement with D3 is required twice a month because the 12% makes up the difference

I understand that the more UBV is provided the more D3 the Cham can produce on its own but is it enough to replace the supplementing? And what about the comment saying veilds require 12% UVB? Or am I misinterpreting this?

 

[ERKleRose]

Hmmm...

 

[ERKleRose]

Whatever the correct answer is, every cham needs a section of the cage with no uvb output so they can regulate their uvb absorption.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Whatever the correct answer is, every cham needs a section of the cage with no uvb output so they can regulate their uvb absorption.

When you read through that are you interpreting that the same way I am?

 

[ERKleRose]

When you read through that are you interpreting that the same way I am?

I don’t know. In my personal opinion, I don’t agree with her on the 12%. I get if your cham is exposed to lots of uvb (though I’m thinking direct sun exposure, not strong uvb), then don’t use D3

 

[ERKleRose]

If there was like an 8 or 9% uvb, or a 10 or 12% T8, then I get using only that type of uvb for a veiled, but 12% on T5 is drastic to me. They don’t just bake in the uv rays in the wild, they have cover, too

 

[SirWilliamj]

Isn't 12% more for desert animals like bearded dragons and 6% for forest animals... like chameleons? I'm curious now especially since i just paid almost $200 for an arcadia 4 bulb t5HO with a 6% UV bulb :-/

 

[SirWilliamj]

I'm considering taking mine off D3 entirely since he gets to go outside daily and soak up lots of bright south FL sun.

 

[ERKleRose]

Isn't 12% more for desert animals like bearded dragons and 6% for forest animals... like chameleons? I'm curious now especially since i just paid almost $200 for an arcadia 4 bulb t5HO with a 6% UV bulb :-/

6% is ideal for most chams, especially panthers. But it’s most effective in a single bulb reflector and linking multiple singles together when adding grow lights, instead of getting a dual or quad fixture

 

[ERKleRose]

I'm considering taking mine off D3 entirely since he gets to go outside daily and soak up lots of bright south FL sun.

How long is he outside daily?

 

[SirWilliamj]

How long is he outside daily?

During the week at least an hour in the morng. Weekends. 2 + hrs typically. Direct sunlight

 

[ERKleRose]

During the week at least an hour in the morng. Weekends. 2 + hrs typically. Direct sunlight

I, personally, would cut out the D3 if you do this year round. But I’m no expert, so don‘t do it off of only my advice.

 

[SirWilliamj]

6% is ideal for most chams, especially panthers. But it’s most effective in a single bulb reflector and linking multiple singles together when adding grow lights, instead of getting a dual or quad fixture

Would you recommend I get a stronger UV bulb for my new TO outfit?

 

[Decadancin]

So, here goes...

Yes the Moderator is going to stray from the suggested care sheets here for a bit.

So the caresheets are a great guide for new keepers and are even useful for checking your husbandry. However, they are a guide. Having said this, I do not like when anyone speaks in absolutes. You do not always need to use a 12% Arcadia for veiled chameleons. I often recommend this, but you will not have animals falling off their vines due to a lack of UVB. Even a 6% Arcadia T5HO is an awesome choice, but I like to use 12% with veileds because they tend to be from more semi-arid conditions in their natural range. So, yes this would line up with the "desert" bulbs. For many years we did not have Arcadia to use and many animals lived long lives. We are just trying to provide the best environment for them. Truth be told the best thing to do is use a Solarmeter to check UVB penetration. I do agree with using a 6% for panthers, but that is just how I do it.
Now, as for the supplement schedule, seems like a bunch of bickering that isn't helping anyone. I hope I never come across as "know it all" as this (and if I do please keep it to yourselves ), and I am "friends" with Nathalie on FB and she is extremely helpful to so many, but one of my favorite sayings is that there is no 1 perfect answer to chameleon husbandry. She is likely, as I try to do, just giving the best advice for people to be successful. Again, there are no absolutes. I don't have any proof to support her claim about not needing D3 while using the 12% so I won't argue that, but I will say I would likely still use it bi-weekly (as I did with a 12% T5HO on Zapphod's enclosure.

As for my supplement schedule with veileds, I pretty much did the normal Calcium no D3 every feeding, Calcium w/D3 alternating every other week with a multivitamin. However, I don't do this with my Panther. I use Repashy's Calcium Plus LoD at every feeding. https://www.store.repashy.com/calcium-plus-4-lod-oz-bag.html
I don't usually offer that advice to new keepers to avoid confusion, but it is what I think is the best option.

Yes, many chameleon owners that are able to offer their animals quality time in natural sunlight actually do not use supplements, just well gutloaded feeders.

I will even throw a little wrench into the discussion about UVB strength. I have seen some speak of cancers and other skin issues that may be related to the intensity of the 12% bulbs. So if that is a possibility should we be telling everyone that the can only use a 12% with veileds? Also, what about the fixture that we use with these bulbs. Are we getting the same amount of penetration using a single bulb fixture as opposed to a multi bulb one? Way too many variables to speak in absolutes, in my opinion.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it .

 

[JacksJill]

I get the point she is making but unless she has done it on multiple animals over more than one generation I wouldn't risk it. Deficiency diseases can take time to develop. I don't think cutting back on D3 would be a bad idea in this situation, giving it half as often or doing a lower dose. I have no concrete proof on way or the other.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

So, here goes...

Yes the Moderator is going to stray from the suggested care sheets here for a bit.

So the caresheets are a great guide for new keepers and are even useful for checking your husbandry. However, they are a guide. Having said this, I do not like when anyone speaks in absolutes. You do not always need to use a 12% Arcadia for veiled chameleons. I often recommend this, but you will not have animals falling off their vines due to a lack of UVB. Even a 6% Arcadia T5HO is an awesome choice, but I like to use 12% with veileds because they tend to be from more semi-arid conditions in their natural range. So, yes this would line up with the "desert" bulbs. For many years we did not have Arcadia to use and many animals lived long lives. We are just trying to provide the best environment for them. Truth be told the best thing to do is use a Solarmeter to check UVB penetration. I do agree with using a 6% for panthers, but that is just how I do it.
Now, as for the supplement schedule, seems like a bunch of bickering that isn't helping anyone. I hope I never come across as "know it all" as this (and if I do please keep it to yourselves ), and I am "friends" with Nathalie on FB and she is extremely helpful to so many, but one of my favorite sayings is that there is no 1 perfect answer to chameleon husbandry. She is likely, as I try to do, just giving the best advice for people to be successful. Again, there are no absolutes. I don't have any proof to support her claim about not needing D3 while using the 12% so I won't argue that, but I will say I would likely still use it bi-weekly (as I did with a 12% T5HO on Zapphod's enclosure.

As for my supplement schedule with veileds, I pretty much did the normal Calcium no D3 every feeding, Calcium w/D3 alternating every other week with a multivitamin. However, I don't do this with my Panther. I use Repashy's Calcium Plus LoD at every feeding. https://www.store.repashy.com/calcium-plus-4-lod-oz-bag.html
I don't usually offer that advice to new keepers to avoid confusion, but it is what I think is the best option.

Yes, many chameleon owners that are able to offer their animals quality time in natural sunlight actually do not use supplements, just well gutloaded feeders.

I will even throw a little wrench into the discussion about UVB strength. I have seen some speak of cancers and other skin issues that may be related to the intensity of the 12% bulbs. So if that is a possibility should we be telling everyone that the can only use a 12% with veileds? Also, what about the fixture that we use with these bulbs. Are we getting the same amount of penetration using a single bulb fixture as opposed to a multi bulb one? Way too many variables to speak in absolutes, in my opinion.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it .

Oh don’t worry, you could NEVER be accused of being a know it all!

Seriously though I’ve never hear that about the veilds but it does make sense. Thank you for the input.

 

[Decadancin]

Oh don’t worry, you could NEVER be accused of being a know it all!

Seriously though I’ve never hear that about the veilds but it does make sense. Thank you for the input.

 

[dshuld]

6% is ideal for most chams, especially panthers. But it’s most effective in a single bulb reflector and linking multiple singles together when adding grow lights, instead of getting a dual or quad fixture

Close, some duals and quads are fine to use. The thing to look at is the reflector being used in the fixture. A single reflector for all bulbs like the arcadia (rebranded odyssea fixture) dual and quad are the ones to avoid. They are not the only ones with a single reflector design for multiple bulbs though, hagen/ fluval is another I know of off the top of my head. Even one of the strongest par t5ho grow lights does 2 tubes per reflector (quantum bad boy) but they drive the bulbs a little harder then a couple other manufactures that use individual reflectors in multi tube fixtures, ~57.25w vs 54w. For our purposes it would suffer a similar issue the arcadia does by blocking some the uv on the backside of the neighboring bulb and trying to make it up by driving the bulb a little harder essentially. Where as a sunblaze, grow crew, htg supply and some traditional aquarium fixture companies, aquatic life, ati, coral life though their reflector quality is in the toilet, use individual reflectors and drive at "normal" t5ho currents.

So it's not really that multiple tube fixtures are bad to use, it's some multi tube fixtures have reflectors that are bad (aka inefficient at light/ uv transfer) for our purposes. The benefit to going all singles is to be able to spread the better light out as wanted on the cage or....go led for the plant lights (cough @Decadancin cough ). Some of the aquatic fixtures are in Hoppy's par charts, some of the horticulture fixtures have "charts" mixed into threads on planted tank sites and reef sites (I'm sure you knew this being a fellow tank hobbyist though ). I still look through the charts some times but you have to keep the single reflector issue in mind. The odyssea fixtures really aren't horrible at par production, the dual tube is ~102 par @15" vs say the coral life's dual tube's 42 par @15". But, then we have to go that step further in this hobby and consider the uv blockage due to the reflector design.....

As to the topic of the thread though, I still give d3 with 12% bulbs.

 

[SirWilliamj]

Here is a great link for information on lighting. It will definitely make you "well informed." From Todd Goode and Bill Strand https://www.chameleonbreeder.com/po...LEEEautvSItembXn7cR4daklw84f6HqBwCqYmDTmne46M

 

[nightanole]

Indoor, supplement with D3, regardless of how "perfect" your lighting setup is. Outdoors, dont supplement with D3.