GooglezNvincent
New Member
idefinately will never do this, but i heard apparently a father can be bred with his daughter? or is that bs, can problems arise?
Is this true?
- Thread starter GooglezNvincent
- Start date
CleaTheChameleon
New Member
like breeding meaning mate? well if that case that would be one ugly baby and it may have some disabilities idk but you got to treat the kid right. im sorry if i got confused on the question
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
It can be done and some breeders do it in an attempt to reinforce desireable traits.
Nicodemayo
Avid Member
Yes this is called line breeding. Some people will linebreed to enhance or keep a favored color trait.
CleaTheChameleon
New Member
omg i feel embarrassed i though we were talking adults oh my god im stupid
Nicodemayo
Avid Member
Dont feel stupid, that happens too LOL
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
It severely weakens bloodlines in chameleon species, but is more commonly done with less complex reptiles such as ball pythons, which show a reduced need for stronger genetics to begin with. Such practice is the stuff of quick-bucks and naive buyers.
DJnSoCal
Established Member
Google, google line or inbreeding. As sandrachameleon and Nicodemayo inferred, it is practiced. As with any line/inbreeding you need to consider any recessive genes that may be present. Father to daughter is acceptable, but not son to mother. Don't breed siblings as their genes are generally too similar. When you are doing this, you're trying to reinforce a specific set of traits or characteristics. For example, if you have a nice Nosy Faly with a decent white background, you may consider some line breeding to bring out the white even more in future generations. Of course, you may bring out something unexpected or not what you intended in the first place.
Happy researching!
ColorCham427
Avid Member
hmmm... really blue chameleons....hmmm.....
Fearaffect
Avid Member
Only the Mississippi and Arkansas Chameleons can be bred like that......thats my understanding anyway......
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
You are guaranteed to produce genetically inferior animals.
.
Acceptable ? Can't wait to see a vendor/breedor advertise that "this colorful critter was produced by breeding a daughter back to her father". Amazingly, I have never seen such credits in an ad. Don't think I will in the future either.
Line breeding in chameleons severely weakens their genetic viability. It is also why you won't see breeders taking credit for it. The advice to consider it is pathetic.
DJnSoCal
Established Member
I think some people are having a knee jerk reaction to something they feel is taboo without taking the time to seriously evaluate the pros and cons of the topic at hand. Keep an open mind...
Chameleons, by their nature, are confined to a small locations. It is difficult to fathom there is not some line/inbreeding occurring in nature. If you do look at the studies of in/line breeding in other animals, there are definately risks associated with it, but generally after 10 to 12 generations of in/line breeding. Those who are going to line breed a chameleon are probably very aware they can't carry on line breeding forever and need to bring in some new genetic material at some point. I can't find ANY studies of line breeding chameleons... anywhere. If someone can help us all out with it, I would appreciate it. Therefore, until I see some hard data ANY line breeding of a chameleon is "guaranteed to produce a genetically inferior animals" I will have to go with the data from other animals and say maybe someone hasn't done their research.
Regardless, linebreeding is practiced in numerous species, most notably pure-bred dogs (this is where I received my first introduction to the topic about 15 years ago).
I think ColorCham427 pointed out a great point. I read between his lines and noted he is saying there may have been some line breeding to produce some really blue Nosy Be's. And why not... it could definately happen in the wild...
On a separate note, I have to take a wee bit of offense when a site sponsor reverts to calling something pathetic that has a definate basis in fact. Anyhow, off to read some more...
Chameleons, by their nature, are confined to a small locations. It is difficult to fathom there is not some line/inbreeding occurring in nature. If you do look at the studies of in/line breeding in other animals, there are definately risks associated with it, but generally after 10 to 12 generations of in/line breeding. Those who are going to line breed a chameleon are probably very aware they can't carry on line breeding forever and need to bring in some new genetic material at some point. I can't find ANY studies of line breeding chameleons... anywhere. If someone can help us all out with it, I would appreciate it. Therefore, until I see some hard data ANY line breeding of a chameleon is "guaranteed to produce a genetically inferior animals" I will have to go with the data from other animals and say maybe someone hasn't done their research.
Regardless, linebreeding is practiced in numerous species, most notably pure-bred dogs (this is where I received my first introduction to the topic about 15 years ago).
I think ColorCham427 pointed out a great point. I read between his lines and noted he is saying there may have been some line breeding to produce some really blue Nosy Be's. And why not... it could definately happen in the wild...
On a separate note, I have to take a wee bit of offense when a site sponsor reverts to calling something pathetic that has a definate basis in fact. Anyhow, off to read some more...
SimonBolivar
New Member
lmao dats messed upp
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
DJn
I speak from the experience of multi-generational breeding of pardalis. Not knee jerk. I do not have to hypothesize with pretend suppositions that it works in the wild, when I know it has inherent genetic flaws based on actual results. It doesn't work anywhere worth a hoot. Whether in the wild, or in captivity, Mother Nature easily selects against such pairings. Whether it may produce a generation of neat morphs does not diminish that the genetics are weakened.
Take all the offense that you want, wee or otherwise. Let those who have line-bred chameleons come here with their data and debate. Have you noticed how many who might possibly stake a claim to multi-generational breeding, line or otherwise, do not post here ? You are debating with assumption and conjecture from results based in other species. All of those species have much higher captive-breeding success rates than chameleons, to include dogs, ball pythons, etc. I am debating with hands-on multi-generational experience. Some things demand offending
I speak from the experience of multi-generational breeding of pardalis. Not knee jerk. I do not have to hypothesize with pretend suppositions that it works in the wild, when I know it has inherent genetic flaws based on actual results. It doesn't work anywhere worth a hoot. Whether in the wild, or in captivity, Mother Nature easily selects against such pairings. Whether it may produce a generation of neat morphs does not diminish that the genetics are weakened.
Take all the offense that you want, wee or otherwise. Let those who have line-bred chameleons come here with their data and debate. Have you noticed how many who might possibly stake a claim to multi-generational breeding, line or otherwise, do not post here ? You are debating with assumption and conjecture from results based in other species. All of those species have much higher captive-breeding success rates than chameleons, to include dogs, ball pythons, etc. I am debating with hands-on multi-generational experience. Some things demand offending
DJnSoCal
Established Member
Great, thanks for the information. Please help me out then. What were the results?
What characteristics were present that caused problems?
What was the rate of fertility in those inline bred vs. those that were not.
How many generations did you try?
Of those "inferior" chameleons, what were the problems?
How did you verify these problems against what is considered average for the species? How did you find this data to begin with? I can't find it anywhere.
I will not take "because I said so" as a legitimate or valid answer from anyone. If you do have the data, I'd be interested to see it and evaluate it.
Frankly, there is a stigma against this type of breeding that I doubt anyone will speak up and talk about, except to say it happens, just like THREE (four if you count me) others already did. You are the only one saying it apparently can't happen... or you shouldn't try it. Just help me out. Teach me so that I may know.
Thanks.
What characteristics were present that caused problems?
What was the rate of fertility in those inline bred vs. those that were not.
How many generations did you try?
Of those "inferior" chameleons, what were the problems?
How did you verify these problems against what is considered average for the species? How did you find this data to begin with? I can't find it anywhere.
I will not take "because I said so" as a legitimate or valid answer from anyone. If you do have the data, I'd be interested to see it and evaluate it.
Frankly, there is a stigma against this type of breeding that I doubt anyone will speak up and talk about, except to say it happens, just like THREE (four if you count me) others already did. You are the only one saying it apparently can't happen... or you shouldn't try it. Just help me out. Teach me so that I may know.
Thanks.
CleanLineChameleons
Avid Member
I would love to see those facts as well, I don't think anyone here has these numbers or experience. I personally am against line breeding but I will say I have no clue on the outcome of the offspring.
Also I still am wondering about "multigenerational" experience. Does this mean captive hatching large numbers? Does it mean actually producing F2's (which are a result of two F1's)? I think the only way to actually know if line breeding causes problems is to line breed multiple times, which I think the only people with experience will not speak up because it may hurt their reputation.
I feel that many of the issues we see...tongue problems, nervous system problems,..etc are due to our poor captive care. I mean, our lighting is horrible and I feel our feeders are also very poor. As far as line breeding, there isn't any evidence against it or for it, so your word is just as meaningful as mine.
My 2cents,
Chris
Also I still am wondering about "multigenerational" experience. Does this mean captive hatching large numbers? Does it mean actually producing F2's (which are a result of two F1's)? I think the only way to actually know if line breeding causes problems is to line breed multiple times, which I think the only people with experience will not speak up because it may hurt their reputation.
I feel that many of the issues we see...tongue problems, nervous system problems,..etc are due to our poor captive care. I mean, our lighting is horrible and I feel our feeders are also very poor. As far as line breeding, there isn't any evidence against it or for it, so your word is just as meaningful as mine.
My 2cents,
Chris
Nicodemayo
Avid Member
I am against this practice, but alot more breeders practice this method than most realize, thats the worst part.
jojothefirst
New Member
slightly off subject, does anyway know if 1 of them had mbd would it increase the chances of the babys having it?
Nicodemayo
Avid Member
No mbd is a bone disease not a genetic defect/trait
chameleon guy
New Member
I don't know but they shouldn't even be bred if they have mbd.
