X -Rays - what do you see?

[little leaf]

ok, here are the X rays of the cham - we do not know how to read them - as stated, my FRIEND who is a cat /dog vet took them - just to help me out-

this is what we kinda thought we saw -

babies, (the white lines) and on the side shot, please note her spine -

anyone is welcome to comment , but if you are GUESSING- please say :guess-

I am still learning so much- and I do not mind asking for help - that is how you learn my main reason for the x rays was to be sure she did not have a broken spine or pelvis - the pelvis is good- its the spine...

thanks guys for all your help - I really need it
sorry the pics are not real good-

 

[little leaf]

this is the link to the pics of the cham, and whats going on w/ her-

https://www.chameleonforums.com/1-2-paralyzed-infections-gravid-advice-needed-111098/

 

[ataraxia]

Id guess babies also.

 

[little leaf]

Id guess babies also.

thats what I think, and its the spines we are seeing -yes ??

but....what do I know-

kinda makes the "guess how many" game no fun- LOL

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Really hard to read the x-rays from a picture...they're very light so it's difficult to make out much of the bone structure specifics. There's also black stuff on the film I can't see around. What's happening in the third one? Is she being held on her side and trying to twist back upright?

 

[laurie]

Really hard to read the x-rays from a picture...they're very light so it's difficult to make out much of the bone structure specifics. There's also black stuff on the film I can't see around. What's happening in the third one? Is she being held on her side and trying to twist back upright?

Cheryl said, yes most likely she was trying to get up. Cheryl had on the heavy lead gloves, the vet required that.
Do you think what we are seeing is babies? Cheryl isn't home so I am typing her answer.

I will relay answers. Cheryl found her on her back prior to leaving home.

Laurie

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Most likely babies. With puppies and kittens you can see the skulls and then the spines connected to them. It's easier to see the further into gestation they are. I can see discrete bony opacities in the abdomen but they don't look like the typical shape of a skull and are very dense for little spines. But I've never seen a gravid jackson x-ray...it's much easier to see eggs. With her size and the little shapes floating around in there I'd say they're fetuses! They might be easier to see fully in person. Pictures of x-ray films lose a lot of detail in the transfer.

 

[Trace]

Disclaimer: I am not a veterinarian.

I’d likely say those are babies as well. For comparison sakes, here is a radiograph of a pregnant Jackson’s that I suspected was carrying slugs: https://www.chameleonforums.com/my-jacksons-pregnant-97305/ Note how the ‘eggs’ are carried lower in the body and you can not see any bones. Unfortunately the original images in the linked thread (https://www.chameleonforums.com/21-more-j-jacksonii-babies-32007/) are no longer visible but you could the vertebral column on those x-rays just like the ones pictured on this thread.

Unlike a more solid mammalian skull, the chameleon skull has a lot of large empty areas for the eye sockets, sinuses and casque. Would the skull really show up that clearly on an x-ray at this stage of development?

 

[laurie]

I guessed this answer was no, but will let you 2 ladies with knowledge answer. Can you tell from the e rays how close the babies are to full term?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Would the skull really show up that clearly on an x-ray at this stage of development?

Dunno! Since we don't know how long she's been gravid, or at what point in gestation mineralization of the fetal skeleton occurs (45 days in dogs btw) it's hard to say. You bring up a good point about the skull probably being less dense in chams. I think they're fetuses, but it's hard to say for sure since the opacities don't look like any body structure to me. But there aren't many alternatives that would look like that.

For fun:
Early pregnancy in the dog - you can see small spines and a little bit of rib cage attached to little skulls. http://stevewarrington.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/x-ray-pregnant-dog1.jpg

Late pregnancy in the dog - you can see just about every bone as these are due any day now so more of the skeleton is formed! http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images25/WhelpingPuppiesXrayDogsPregnant4Dogs1.jpg

 

[little leaf]

ok, I just got home and looked in on her- she is failing quickly

I am sorry the quality of the X-rays are so bad- I dont know how some ppl post such good pics of them ~

I am thinking the babies are the reason for her not being able to move alot- I counted 14 "spines" - I can feel little " balls" in her abdomen- I feel like the grim reaper - if she is to pass, should I try to save the babies? I know I will have only moments, or should I take and have her spayed ?

ugh- and she has a URI - she is starting the gasping/gaping for breath - I want to do what is right by her- even tho she is a "rescue" she deserves to be treated as part of "the family"

Trace, I know you are not a vet, but that does not mean you dont know your stuff and I know its very hard to tell anything by the x rays- I just appreciate any and all help - I was telling Laurie, I feel so bad when I don't know what to do , or what is right - but with each one I learn, and take notes when I go for the vet visits, and some day I hope I will feel more confident than scared when I take in these little ones - but even tho I am still learning, for better or worse, its me or nothing for them - and the little veiled that was here came in from a show, and when they got her, she was in a black ball in the bottom of a cup, I felt proud when she left here healthy

I was wondering anyone's thoughts on how far along the babies are because I am trying to make a hard decision , and I think you can pretty much guess what it is - even in our brood mares, we always put the mothers health first, but sometimes all you can save are foals -

I am going to post any and all info for those who want to follow it- I hope by my posting , we can all learn more
I know not many have seen a preg/ Jackson X-ray, and when my daughter gets home from the horse show, she has a much better camera, and I will try to get better pics - I do have a light table for reading them - one of the perks of my husband working in demo- when they tear down hospitals, he brings me all kinds of goodies

thanks all , I really do appreciate your taking your time to help me

 

[little leaf]

Dunno! Since we don't know how long she's been gravid, or at what point in gestation mineralization of the fetal skeleton occurs (45 days in dogs btw) it's hard to say. You bring up a good point about the skull probably being less dense in chams. I think they're fetuses, but it's hard to say for sure since the opacities don't look like any body structure to me. But there aren't many alternatives that would look like that.

For fun:
Early pregnancy in the dog - you can see small spines and a little bit of rib cage attached to little skulls. http://stevewarrington.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/x-ray-pregnant-dog1.jpg

Late pregnancy in the dog - you can see just about every bone as these are due any day now so more of the skeleton is formed! http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images25/WhelpingPuppiesXrayDogsPregnant4Dogs1.jpg

those are neat links - thanks

well, IF she passes, I am going to see just whats in her- but I am going to do all I can to save her- but I also am not going to let her linger if it becomes clear she is just suffering , and she is becoming very upset at the fact she is just losing her rear leg function - like her instinct is telling her to hide, or climb, and she cant - it is very sad to watch - any suggestion on how to keep her from flailing about ? if I put her just flat on the "ground" she tips over - but she is still drinking, and eating, and has good grip, just can not seem to be able to keep her balance ? she will slowly slide to the side of the vine, but not let go- what if I place her in a little sling - ? I dont know, just a thought ~

 

[Trace]

Dayna: Those X-rays are super cool! Favourited.

Cheryl: She may be having a hard time breathing because the fetuses are pushing up against her lungs. They may also be pushing up against her spine and that might be the answer to some of her motor issues. If she is having difficulty climbing I would keep her in a tote on soft towels or blankets so she can grip and/or be propped up. Water in any amount is good. She has been transported all over and has had a few different owners and situations the last few days; some privacy would also be beneficial.

I have worked with mostly live bearing species and I have not come across a situation where the mother refuses to give birth. The egg laying gals are a bit fussier when it comes to laying sites so dystocia is more common. However since she is a rescue, who knows the situation she was in previous to you receiving her and that may have forced her to hang on to the embryos longer than normal. If you think she is indeed going down quickly, I’d likely take her to the vet for either an injection to start labour or spay surgery. It’s been a long while since I did rescues and/or worked in animal hospitals but I’d assume the medications and surgical options would be the same the egg laying species but don’t quote me on that.

 

[little leaf]

Dayna: Those X-rays are super cool! Favourited.

Cheryl: She may be having a hard time breathing because the fetuses are pushing up against her lungs. They may also be pushing up against her spine and that might be the answer to some of her motor issues. If she is having difficulty climbing I would keep her in a tote on soft towels or blankets so she can grip and/or be propped up. Water in any amount is good. She has been transported all over and has had a few different owners and situations the last few days; some privacy would also be beneficial.

I have worked with mostly live bearing species and I have not come across a situation where the mother refuses to give birth. The egg laying gals are a bit fussier when it comes to laying sites so dystocia is more common. However since she is a rescue, who knows the situation she was in previous to you receiving her and that may have forced her to hang on to the embryos longer than normal. If you think she is indeed going down quickly, I’d likely take her to the vet for either an injection to start labour or spay surgery. It’s been a long while since I did rescues and/or worked in animal hospitals but I’d assume the medications and surgical options would be the same the egg laying species but don’t quote me on that.

yes, I agree with you Trace, I think the babies have a lot to do w/ this- I have her in a covered tote, and a fat vine just laying in there so she thinks she is on something , it has the bottom cut out and I glued screen so she could hold her toenails to it, but maybe a towel would be better - I will change it out in the am - she has the thick, gooey spit, it is coming out threw her lips , but bless her little heart, she can not shoot,but if you hold a bug to her lips she will take it off your finger - so she has a will to stay for now- but I can see a decline in just the short time I have had her- I would like your thought ( or anyone who cares to comment ) on a cage I was going to make for her- I am so fearful she will have the babies when I am not here, and they will not escape the sacks due to the lack of falling and catching on the plants- I was going to use soft netting, and put it as a "floor" or like a shelf so to speak, 3/4 of the way in a 36" tall - and let the plants kinda of poke threw the top, so she can sit on the tips of the plant, but cant fall thew, but the babies should be able to fall threw the netting - and hit the plants under her - and also I hope she will feel better about having them if there are plants - or is this not a good idea ? the netting is 3/4 " diamond , a soft nylon - with her being so gravid, it makes caring for her much more of a challenge
Thanks again everyone for your great help and advice -

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

You could try it and see if she stays comfortable. If she's having trouble staying upright (not good) then the netting might be too much of a challenge for her. The stress of being juggled around from home to home might be making her reluctant to give birth. After all, she wants her babies to be safe so if she's under a lot of stress and doesn't feel safe she's going to try to protect those babies however she can, even at her own expense. You mentioned above that you were trying to decide who to save if necessary, which is of course a very difficult decision to make. But I think your options are more limited. Based on your description of how she is doing I don't think she would survive surgery. But maybe you and your good reptile vet could discuss oxytocin when he's back on Thursday if she hasn't had them by then to try to induce labor. Since we don't know how far along she is she may or may not be ready to give birth right now. But if she is that may help when she's reluctant to do it on her own due to environmental factors. Otherwise just keep her as comfortable and supported as possible to help her in the only way you can. If she doesn't make it you could certainly try to get the babies out if you'd like, just be very careful cutting and be prepared that the babies may or may not be alive.

 

[little leaf]

You could try it and see if she stays comfortable. If she's having trouble staying upright (not good) then the netting might be too much of a challenge for her. The stress of being juggled around from home to home might be making her reluctant to give birth. After all, she wants her babies to be safe so if she's under a lot of stress and doesn't feel safe she's going to try to protect those babies however she can, even at her own expense. You mentioned above that you were trying to decide who to save if necessary, which is of course a very difficult decision to make. But I think your options are more limited. Based on your description of how she is doing I don't think she would survive surgery. But maybe you and your good reptile vet could discuss oxytocin when he's back on Thursday if she hasn't had them by then to try to induce labor. Since we don't know how far along she is she may or may not be ready to give birth right now. But if she is that may help when she's reluctant to do it on her own due to environmental factors. Otherwise just keep her as comfortable and supported as possible to help her in the only way you can. If she doesn't make it you could certainly try to get the babies out if you'd like, just be very careful cutting and be prepared that the babies may or may not be alive.

yes, I am going to put in a call to him on Tue, he does check in w/ the office and I am sure he will call me - maybe even see her sooner- he is also a friend, kinda- lol - I have known him a long time

she is not doing well , and I am leaving her alone pretty much except for misting. i just wish I knew how far along she was - and if her not eating was due to getting ready to have the babies, or is she is just "off her feed" due to the illness - the ONLY clue I had w/ Olive was she did not want to eat 3 days before birth - today is the 3rd day this one has not eaten at her own will/hunt, but if you would put a bug to her face she would eat- but not today, so I did not force the issue w/ her - she is still strong in grip. I carried her cage outside to get sun, I think they feel better when they get sun - I also added a moist towel , and she is clung to the vine, but I want to be sure she can still get her self to the shade if needed - so I am spying on her threw the window w/ binoculars

I also was wondering if she could have vit A issue- she fits it to a T - I know the babies have about a 1 % chance if she dies and I try to get them- but 1% is better than none I guess - I will sure keep everyone posted on how she is doing - thanks guys

 

[little leaf]

quick update :
no babies yet- I thought last night she was going to start labor, but it was just a HUGE bm - she is still hanging in there- but things do not look good for her she is refusing food now- but I am not forcing it, my girl stopped eating 3 days before she had hers, so the food strike may not be due to the illness - will keep all posted