Word of warning for commercial gutload users

[Extensionofgreen]

i have noted some threads where people are using gutloads that are commercially available. I have looked high and low for a ready to use mixture that was cost efficient for me and although the ones sold on the forums are great, I go through well over 10lbs of gutload every 2-3 months and I prefer to make my own.
My concern came when some members mentioned a particular gutload and that their roaches preferred it immensely over cricket crack. I reached out and contacted the makers of the gutload and the ingredient list is poor, if not worrisome. I'm not endorsing or condemning any particular products, but if you aren't using one of the gutloads sold by the forum members and even if you are( I don't use them, but my experience makes me comfortable with the ingredients enough to give a green light for a couple of the gutloads sold on the forums), be responsible and make sure your know the ingredients. If it's cheap, there's probably a good reason that is the case. To put things into perspective, I spend $300 on gutload materials, every couple months, so it is not cheap to make something worth of our chameleons, especially in any quantity. I suggest some of you investigate what you are feeding and what's in it, the compare those ingredients to the research we have available regarding phytic acid, and other nutrient antagonist. It really take a commitment to provide the best for your animals in a world willing to sell you anything you're willing to pay for, whether it's good for your animals or not. Just look at the human foods in the US! If it's not full of sugar, chemicals, dyes, and garbage, it's 3x the price. Tread carefully!

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

This is wisdom! I would heed it! I too make my own gutload! I recently added more ingredients to mine due to the wisdom shared to me by @Extensionofgreen this information is not shared with you for any other reason other than the fact that @Extensionofgreen cares deeply for the wellbeing of chameleons!

 

[Nursemaia]

So what is your gutload recipe? I currently use Repashy superload and augment it with fresh fruits and vegetables.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

Here's a photo of one of my ingredient list. It changes slightly and I add brewers yeast. I've used Repashy, but I go through their $100 size diets in a couple of weeks. I have about 10 species of roaches, I'm feeding a lot of mouths.
I use spineless cactus pads and unsweetened apple sauce as a water source. I used to deal with the fresh produce, but in the volume I'm working with, it spoils too quickly and is too labor intensive, so I really concentrate nutrient density into the dry formula. I still add fresh things, especially in warm months, when I can harvest wild edible foliage, like grape leaves, dandelion, mulberry leaves, plantains ( the weeds ), and mallow.

I included the list for the order I just placed, which is about 15lbs of food for a bit over $300.

 

[Alexander1]

Wow looks like you've been doing your homework! I'm gonna have to borrow some of those ingredients

 

[Extensionofgreen]

You always want fruit ingredients and bee pollen to make up 30% or less of the ingredient totals. In the recent list, bee pollen is one pound of 151/2 lbs total, so that's 6% of the mix. Too much bee pollen can cause hypervitaminosis and possibly pesticide toxicity in the US, anyway, but it's an excellent natural source of potent vitamins and protein. Fruits are high in phosphorus and will skew your phosphorus to Calcium ratio. I stick to fruits high in antioxidants, calcium ( figs and cactus fruits ), or fruits that have flavors or smells that enhance the palatability, such as banana, in this case. I limit grains to nutrient dense types, no corn, wheat, or soy, which is fairly empty and hard to digest, as well as causing inflammatory and antagonistic responses in the body. Overwhelmingly, I concentrate on high protein vegetable sources, and nut powders for calcium, protein, zinc, and other vitamins and minerals. A comprehensive gutload can be far less elaborate, but I enjoy researching and including a variety of things, so that's why I spend so much time and cash on my mixture.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

A responsible chameleon owner is someone who, amongst a few other things, constantly do research in to GUTLOADING! I constantly work at finding better gutload items, more variety and better ways of ensuring that the bugs my chameleons eat are in tip top condition! All living things ARE what they eat!

 

[Andee]

I actually use about half or so of those ingredients in my mix and regularly change ingredients each time I make a new batch, I just rarely buy prepowdered stuff.

 

[Nursemaia]

Follow up question. How did you come up with this recipe? Just curious, I'm not questioning it's nutritional value. How many chams do you have to need that many feeders?

 

[Extensionofgreen]

I had lots of chameleons when I worked with them, 10 years ago. I think 19 was my highest number, with 11 being melleri and 2 parsonii, so larger roaches were a must.
Now, I'm sort of just getting started again and I'm starting my feeders, before I acquire a lot of chameleons. By March, I'll have a pair of CBB quad gracilliors, a pair of cristatus, a melleri, a pair of parsonii, 2 pair of oshaughnessy, a veiled, and plan on a pair of Nosy Be and at least 2 more melleri, down the line. I also plan to work with some other African species, if they become available, such as montium, merus, and some of the obscure pygmies.
I learned a lot about reptile nutrition keeping tortoises, uromastyx, iguanas, bearded dragons, sailfin dragons, and chameleons, earlier in my reptile keeping days. I just constantly read about human health and the nutrient contents and relationships of specific items. Studying what is good to feed tortoises and iguanas is a great start to learning about healthy gut loading for insectivores. I also was a CNA for 14 years and worked with a reptile veterinarian as a tech for a time.

 

[Remkon]

Interesting list! You put a lot of work in ti this, kudos!

But I think that for the small amount of feeders I keep, for my 3reptiles, super load and cricket crack along with the recommended fruits and vegetables is good and affordable enough for now.

Still I'm gonna steal your list to see what ingredients are available for me, it never hurts to 'steal' from the experts.

 

[Twitchet]

I grow lots of organic veg etc here,so have turnip, grape, squash, pak choi, kale, etc and a patch of alfalfa, I use them when available but now pickings are slim, I can still find a few greens plus I saved back lots of squash which I grate .
My standard mix is powdered ingredients , I make up a kilner jar full and it lasts a good while- I use a teaspoon or so of my mix sprinkled on the grated squash or greens etc and it makes it very palatable for my feeders,
My recipe is added to and changed but is spirulina , alfalfa, acai, macai, alafalfa, bee pollen, blueberry powder, beetroot -carrot- raspberry powders, I found an organic green freezedry mix which included all of these= wheatgrass,barley grass, banana powder, chlorella, spirulina, peppermint, pomegranate, matcha, orange, lemon, ginger,turmeric, beet, cinnamom, parsley and nettle. Some are more expensive but some of my powders I buy in small amounts so they are fresh and they are only a few £'s each. I always check for added ingredients that I dont want so making sure it's 100% of what it should be- no added sugars etc.
I also add linseed, pumpkinseed and sunflower seed ground up.
It takes a bit of effort and naturally isnt as cheap as the commercial stuff but much much nicer- If you check amazon etc for ingrediants you can be quite savvy and find good prices.
In the summer I'm going to try drying some alfalfa and grinding that up for the winter months,
My last batch- so pretty I had to photograph it!

 

[Remkon]

I grow lots of organic veg etc here,so have turnip, grape, squash, pak choi, kale, etc and a patch of alfalfa, I use them when available but now pickings are slim, I can still find a few greens plus I saved back lots of squash which I grate .
My standard mix is powdered ingredients , I make up a kilner jar full and it lasts a good while- I use a teaspoon or so of my mix sprinkled on the grated squash or greens etc and it makes it very palatable for my feeders,
My recipe is added to and changed but is spirulina , alfalfa, acai, macai, alafalfa, bee pollen, blueberry powder, beetroot -carrot- raspberry powders, I found an organic green freezedry mix which included all of these= wheatgrass,barley grass, banana powder, chlorella, spirulina, peppermint, pomegranate, matcha, orange, lemon, ginger,turmeric, beet, cinnamom, parsley and nettle. Some are more expensive but some of my powders I buy in small amounts so they are fresh and they are only a few £'s each. I always check for added ingredients that I dont want so making sure it's 100% of what it should be- no added sugars etc.
I also add linseed, pumpkinseed and sunflower seed ground up.
It takes a bit of effort and naturally isnt as cheap as the commercial stuff but much much nicer- If you check amazon etc for ingrediants you can be quite savvy and find good prices.
In the summer I'm going to try drying some alfalfa and grinding that up for the winter months,
My last batch- so pretty I had to photograph it!

It looks delish!

 

[Extensionofgreen]

I've also taken pictures of the rainbow, sand painting, of ingredients, before I mix my latest batch. That's an awesome start, Tabitha! I get free shipping and 8/10 of the ingredients are organic, none have any additives, as I'm careful about that too. Unfortunately, where I live, the growing season is short and our wooded lot does not offer good conditions for growing edibles. Building raised beds isn't practical, due to lack of flat ground and sun.
When I have my tortoises, I fenced in 1/4 acre and planted it with wild edibles and I'd feed them from that garden all through the warm months. I love researching and growing nutrient dense foods for my animals. Sometimes I feel like mad scientist, in my quest for the ultimate in good nutrition. The possibilities and trends have come a long way from powdered milk, fish flakes, and dog kibble!

 

[Andee]

I always add a bit of... repashy to my dry mix, does anyone else do this? I usually only add like a teaspoon or so of it, considering I make a .5 gallon jar or more at a time it doesn't make up tons of the mix, but it allows to me to feel safe with less dusting. (not so much with Ryker but he is a special case)

 

[Extensionofgreen]

Repashy has a ton of products, so that's sort of vague, but I have added some of their created gecko diet to my above mixture, as I bought a huge tub to try as a replacement or to extend the time between me making my own mixtures, but I went through it too quickly to make it an effective replacement.
As far as adding Calcium and supplements to my gutload, I do not, except in the case of flies.
The ingredients themselves are natural and the usual way prey items would supply nutrients to a chameleon and the supplement powders we use are to fill in gaps, but too often they are used as if they animals aren't already getting a healthy dose of calcium from the gutloaded feeders. I think preformed vitamin A is one of the few things we need to dust for and possibly D3, but everything else should be able to be provided via a well planned gutload. That doesn't got to say using the supplements powders is a bad approach, but I STRONGLY think dosing any animal with calcium powder with every feeding is complete overkill and nonsense and is a big error that needs to change in our approach. There's is not a scientific source out there that doesn't say getting nutrients from the diet, rather than supplement is more healthy and better utilized by the body.

 

[Andee]

Sorry lol XD Repashy calcium plus their LoD formula. I see where you are coming from in a sense. But you also have to realize a lot of nutrients in lost in captive colonies of insects because they are not exposed to any sort of natural uvb, and also the species we feed are not exposed to natural uvb even in the wild. While wild chameleons would eat a lot of naturally exposed wild insects. They also would eat currently growing plants. Huge difference in my opinion to the dried stuff and the already picked stuff. Even though things that are freeze dried don't lose as much as nutrients as is possible for sure, certain vitamins and minerals are still easily lost in the freeze drying process. There is a huge problem not having insects exposed to uvb on a regular basis and eating currently growing vegetation or something that has just recently fallen. Idk about you but I don't feed any wild caughts. If I am catching wild insects it is to breed them to create a captive bred colony.

I know a lot about the health and nutrition of what freeze dried food provides because my entire rodent foods and treats that I offer are homemade from whole ingredients that I buy individually. This is pretty much not touched in the rodent world. People are terrified of not providing what rodents need. I did research every day for at least 3-5 hours for 8 months before even trying. I now have an ingredient list 42 individual ingredients.

I also feed my tortoise plants and vegetation I either grow or buy for myself. (I myself have a very specific diet due to my intolerances and allergic reactions)

 

[Extensionofgreen]

I don't disagree with you, and one reason I never got into snakes is that I would want to breed my own rodents and make my own feed and rodents take a lot of work to prevent them from reeking of urine.
Insects don't have the capacities that vertebrate prey does to utilize and store D3 or Vitamin A. I think it is less about the fact that our captive feeders are exposed to sunlight and more that our chameleons are under artificial lights in many cases and that they aren't eating the small vertebrates they certainly would in nature. Vertebrate or at least non-insect prey IS consumed, not as a majority of the wild diet, but enough to fill in nutrient gaps left by eating only insects. Wild chameleons eat snails, smaller lizards, amphibians, small birds, other arthropods, and this makes dietary preformed A and other nutrients available to them. Supplements have a place, but in moderation and with thought given to why it is needed. While some nutrients are lost in harvesting and drying plant-based ingredients, Calcium is not one of them that is significantly reduced, so why dust at every feeding with a chalky, drying, unnatural powder, in excess? I'm not saying not to dust at all, but using a supplement in your gutload can and does change how it is delivered to the chameleon, because the feeder will change the potency and possibly even the form of nutrients they consume. It's better to use supplements as they are intended, to ensure the chameleon is getting what it is supposed to get from the product.

 

[alphakenc]

I found an organic green freezedry mix which included all of these= wheatgrass,barley grass, banana powder, chlorella, spirulina, peppermint, pomegranate, matcha, orange, lemon, ginger,turmeric, beet, cinnamom, parsley and nettle.

I see u have Ginger,which is what I used along with a little bit of the Garlic,they are both very valuable in the dry gutload recipe.

 

[Andee]

I do think vertebrates are eaten, but not likely for a mineral or vitamin needs. Though they likely do help with that, I believe the only reason a chameleon actually eats a vertebrate in the wild is because of the unpredictableness of wild food. Therefore in captivity it really only makes sense to feed invertebrates. What do the smaller species eat as far as vertebrates? I don't worry so much as calcium being reduced, I don't actually just add plain calcium to my diet. There is no need for it, I add the extra vitamins and other minerals that the Repashy all in one offers because the best way for that to get absorbed by any creature is with food. So give it to the insects they are most likely to utilize the best way they can (making it the best way the reptiles can utilize) when being fed it. This is why I left the forum norm of the 3 dusting schedule, plain calcium, calcium with d3, and multivitamin, because I realized I was still getting issues with eyes etc, and in my opinion it's because (with some research into a lot of how vitamins are absorbed in multiple species) vitamins and minerals of multiple kinds do best when paired with others because they are best absorbed that way. Which is why it is best absorbed through food because usually foods that offer said minerals or vitamins often have what is best paired with it. Adding a boost is no issue. Especially since Repashy LoD has preformed Vit A which makes it that much easier for the insects to store. I have also realized it is not likely that animal protein fed by itself is the cause of gout. It's feeding specific feeder insects that store uric acid extremely well when fed excessive amounts of animal proteins, cause gout. I don't raise snails... just generally because cleaning their cages would be a severe pain in the ass and I don't have the patience for it. I do however raise isopods and feed them as a staple item.