Will hornworms pupate / metamorphosis in coir ?

[Franquixote]

Latest batch of hornworms turned into monsters really fast, way too big to feed off now. Trying for moths- from what I have read and with Andees advice : ) the only other important factor seems to be lots of bright light for at least 12 hours a day.

This thread seems to indicate they will turn into moths using only coir:


https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/hornworm-pupating.723/

Anyone have experience doing this?
I have coir on hand, plus it seems cleaner to use it if it works.

 

[Franquixote]

2 days in coir and still being fed Repashy mix, they have not burrowed yet. Keeping lights on 12 hours per day min.
species is Manduca Sexta

 

[Scottsquatch]

Keep us updated. Im interested in hornworms.

 

[Franquixote]

UPDATE:
9 of the 12 have dug themselves into the 2-3" of coir. I have them on at least 12 hours of LED light, just an aquarium setup not sure what the color temp is or anything. It looks like they have been eating the Repashy hornworm mix. I mixed the Repashy hornworm at about 1/2 the ratio recommended and it was still a bit too thick compared to the paste in the bottom. First 2 ingredients on the Repashy are soy flour and rice bran, but there is a bunch of stuff in there. Smells a lot different, less like sourdough.
I am keeping them at about 70 degrees, if anyone knows if they will do just as well at 62 or so let me know as I would prefer to keep them with the other feeders in the semi-heated sunroom. I figure that keeping the roaches and crickets in a cold room with a heating pad underneath is a bit of insurance that they prefer the enclosures to trying to escape...
I'm reading that under ideal circumstances the hornworms should turn into moths in 2-3 weeks, if they go into diapause then more like 2-3 months.
It was a headache cutting a hole out of the Sterilite bin and siliconing a screen in, it also turned out ugly. I used a Dremel rotary cutting tool (wheel) to cut the square out for the screen and light, how do you folks cut the plastic without cracking it? A razor seems like it would crack it for sure. Thinking maybe a razor heated with a torch.
Next time I would just let it crack a little and use some wide duct tape for the screen rather than what I did.

 

[dshuld]

I was really just trying to compare notes since we are both working on this at the same time. From what I've read you stop feeding them when you want them to pupate. As mentioned in the other thread I put a few strands of french cut green beans in my tub though as a "transition" food. Enough to give them something to eat if they are still wanting food but little enough in hopes they burrow.

When I had just a few to a tub and on top of 1 of my lights it didnt take them long to burrow, as mentioned in your other thread, 12 hours or so like this. Since putting them into the larger sterilite tub under the light it's taking them longer to burrow done the same way. As of tonight, I'm at 4 cocoons and 19 of the 21 worms put in since last thursday have burrowed over a 48 hr period.

 

[Franquixote]

Well mine seemed like they wanted to top off before they pupated- the supplemental hornworm food (Repashy) got munched pretty hard before they decided to burrow.

 

[NickTide]

I used newspaper and toilet paper rolls. No light. they were all but dead in the cup they came in. One updated. The rest were left in the cup too long and died.

 

[Franquixote]

I have a crappy phone so have to get out the "real" camera to take pics later, but found some interesting info in the meantime.
First of all, to pupate, they must reach a threshold head size of 5.1 mm. I didn't realize this species (Manduca Sexta) was so widely studied; the large size and ease of care makes them ideal for scientists.
A few cool facts:
*The color of their blood will vary with diet (duh)- but is naturally BLUE
*They accumulate toxins in the wild and literally have bad breath (it's even called halitosis) to warn predators - they also click when attacked (which I have never heard).
*In labs, they pupate them in holes drilled in wood and then capped off with a stopper- so apparently, they don't really need coir or anything else.
*It's possible to transplant one of their glands to either force a very young caterpillar to turn into a mini version of the adult, or to transplant the gland from a very young stage (stages are called 'instars') into a later instar and create a giant caterpillar:

In insect physiology, the corpus allatum is an endocrine gland which generates juvenile hormone; as such, it plays a crucial role in metamorphosis. Surgical removal of the corpora allata can cause an immature larva to pupate at its next molt, resulting in a miniature adult. Similarly, transplantation of corpora allata from a young larva to a fully mature larva can greatly extend the larval stage, resulting in an equivalent to gigantism.


I am trying to find the author of the study - Steven J. Kramer to ask if it's possible for a layperson to perform this type of transplant, though I suspect that it requires specialized equipment and training.
The study was in the 1980's I think, so it's unlikely that this will go anywhere.

Also dug up this great old thread :

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/hornworm-moth-set-up-and-care.724/

with a video on caring for the moths. Apparently they are super messy once they emerge, spraying dirt and fluids everywhere.

 

[Franquixote]

Here are the pics requested of my UGLY job on the enclosure and of the worms at instar 5 and burrowing.
Was there something else you wanted to see?View media item 46687View media item 46686View media item 46682View media item 46681

 

[Franquixote]

Update-
The last 2 hornworms have finally wandered and dug themselves in. Although they didn't seem any smaller than the others, it took at least an extra 2 weeks of eating before they decided it was time. The whole dozen were kept under exact same conditions in same enclosure, at least 12 hours light.
Any other opinions on if it will take significantly longer at 63 degrees avg. vs. 70 degrees (same amount of light) ?
Also, any other opinions on whether or not snails can go in with them now that they are buried? I'd like to get the snails out of the tiny enclosure they are in and into this one.
MY MAJOR CONCERN is that I think the snails are ready to start laying and may dig down an inch to do so.
I'd like to start a new thread because I have off for the next few days and would like to do this while I have time. Hope no one minds the semi duplication of posts.

 

[Franquixote]

Well I put the snails in with the hornworms to see what happens. No moths have hatched yet but my snails seems to be about ready to lay eggs!
I will keep you all updated when/if I see moths or baby snails.

 

[Franquixote]

Snails have begun to develop epiphrams (sealing themselves up) so I am thinking it's too cold in the bug room (the crickets and roaches have a heating pad under their plastic bins) and the hawk moths (hornworms) may take until spring to hatch.