Wild Caught Insects/Parasites

[schendricks]

Hello everyone,

Many sources encourage the practice of feeding chameleons wild caught insects for variety, etc. That one should ensure that wild feeder insects are collected from pesticide-free areas is always noted, but what about parasites? Do wild insects generally not host parasites to which chameleons are susceptible?

I still worry about the pesticides, too; even if the area of collection is pesticide-free, how can one be sure the insects don't travel to and from areas they aren't?

Thanks for any help.

Sincerely,

S. Hendricks

 

[OldSkoolxReasons]

When I collect wild caught feeders I collect in a state forest areas that has many untouched fields. I have talked to the rangers and DNR and no one has done anything with the fields care wise in the last 20 years. There is still a parasite risk however. None of my chams have gotten parasites from wild caught feeders yet. I have fecals done, by the vet, on all my chams every 2-3 months and usually monthly in the summertime because I use wild caught feeders quite often them. All my chams love the wild locusts and grasshoppers and mantids and stick bugs and whatever else I can catch that is non-toxic. I am in the process of getting a very informative book on parasites in reptiles and an LCD screen microscope so I can do fecals myself after some practice. It would be nicer than paying $10 for every one I drop off to the vet.


Justin

 

[Carlton]

Do wild insects generally not host parasites to which chameleons are susceptible?

how can one be sure the insects don't travel to and from areas they aren't?

Most insects carry some parasites (the specific types will vary) including our cultivated ones. Insects with an aquatic life stage such as snails tend to have more. Captive chams are not completely free of ALL parasites either. The key is, a healthy cham can handle a small load of common parasites with no trouble. They are very common everywhere. If the cham has other health problems going on the parasites can multiply enough to cause trouble. Periodic fecal tests can tell what your particular cham is carrying easily enough. Treat if needed, not to prevent.

As for the pesticides...there's no guarrantee. If you live in a rural area with NO agriculture the risks might be lower, but it is a dilemma. One way to look at it is...never feed your cham a wildcaught insect that appears less active or sick. It might have gotten caught in a toxic crop or broadcast spray. A really potent pesticide is going to kill bugs before they get far. If you plan on catching insects in your yard, ask your neighbors if they use pesticides and when they use them. If you feed insects that don't travel much or fly, they might have been hatched right on your property. Some counties might broadcast spray to control mosquitos or timber crop pests. I think you can check with the county to see if and when they spray and what for.

 

[schendricks]

Thank you both for the quick and very helpful information. I love this place!

 

[sandrachameleon]

There is potential risk to using wild caught insects. Parasites, pesticides, and one that if often overlooked - the bug may have eaten something good for it but BAD for chamelones (like tomatoe leaves).

That said, I breed plenty of insects, have several stores locally from which to buy, and yet I do still use wild caught insects. Not from a suburb or city area (which I consider poor collection areas, high risk), but rather an organic farm in the country and a park/wilderness area.

Im still knowingly running the risk of bringing home parasites to my chameleons. I have fecal tests done with some regularity and have enough money saved to ensure treatment costs are easily covered, if required. So far I've not had anything too serious result.

Also there is some risk a wild caught bug ate something that will stay in its system long enough to cause harm to my chameleons. I try to mitigate this by keeping and feeding the wc bugs for at least a day to clear anything in their guts. This does not entirely remove the risk.

For me, the perceived benefits of occassional use of certain wild-caught bugs (different nutrients, chameleon interest/excitement) makes the risks worth it. But I mostly rely on / use bugs I breed myself, plus store bought crickets. There are lots of bugs you can breed easily, with little effort or cost.

 

[schendricks]

Thank you, Sandra.

 

[fluxlizard]

This is conjecture- maybe we have a parasitologist lurking who would comment- but I wonder if the odds are that our lizards are more likely to catch parasites from home-bred feeder insects than in wild caught.

Here's why I wonder-

1) most parasites are very host specific. Meaning that yes, you might have parasites in the insects in your yard, but no, most probably won't effect your lizard.

2) Often people clean, then feed. And when they feed they touch doors, etc that may have had fecal contamination at some point in microscopic amounts (for example- open the door, clean the cage, close the door- you may have just put tiny amounts of fecal material on the door, including cysts of parasites, many of which are very sticky and resistant to cleaning). So next, you come back through, touch the drip cups (maybe you already got drip cups going when you were cleaning the cages even...) and possibly transfer cysts or whatever into the water supply. Next you grab a cup, scoop some feeder bugs, go back along, touch a cage door to open it, touch the cup to put the feeders in the food dish you are now touching, touch the door again to close it, put the cup back into the feeder colony to scoop some more roaches or whatever and bam- transfer some cysts or whatever that are now carried by your feeders. Or maybe you take uneaten feeders (possibly after the lizard pooped down the side of the food bowl) and put them back into the feeder colony. Or maybe you free range your feeders inside the lizard cage once you offer them to the lizard, and they climb around through practically microscopic bits of lizard fecal material because you keep the cage very clean, and maybe they even eat some of it before the lizard eats them- reinfecting the lizard...

Etc, etc- basically it's the circle of life contained in captivity.

Even in very clean setups- stuff gets spread around more than most of us would care to imagine. The same, by the way, is true of human to human contact... (eeeeewwww!- all kinds of things involving face-licked dog owners and door to door salesman and grinning politicians who like to shake hands come to mind).

I think the odds that a grasshopper out in the yard is going to carry something that my lizard can catch are much smaller...

 

[sandrachameleon]

This is conjecture- maybe we have a parasitologist lurking who would comment- but I wonder if the odds are that our lizards are more likely to catch parasites from home-bred feeder insects than in wild caught.
...

I believe Dave posted some information not that long ago that showed commercially bred crickets do not tend to carry parasites. Since most people's breeding stock originates from commercial insects, and presuming most people keep clean containers and feed decent food, I dont imagine their bugs are parasite loaded either.

 

[Chameleonboy]

The best way to avoid parasites would be to find wild-caught insects and breeding them. Feed there offspring. In my point of view I think that is the best way to go about it.

-Clemonde

 

[schendricks]

Thanks for the replies! Let me know if anyone finds that post by Dave. I did a quick search, but no luck.

 

[Elizadolots]

I'd be reluctant to feed a "wild caught" insect from around my home because the HOA employs an exterminator service that sprays...but if I caught it in the park nearby (it'a a huge natural park, nothing like you are probably imagining--no one goes there for a picnic...we live about 2 miles from one edge of it) I'd feel safe with those insects.

 

[Mr.Mealies]

This is conjecture- maybe we have a parasitologist lurking who would comment- but I wonder if the odds are that our lizards are more likely to catch parasites from home-bred feeder insects than in wild caught.

Here's why I wonder-

1) most parasites are very host specific. Meaning that yes, you might have parasites in the insects in your yard, but no, most probably won't effect your lizard.

2) Often people clean, then feed. And when they feed they touch doors, etc that may have had fecal contamination at some point in microscopic amounts (for example- open the door, clean the cage, close the door- you may have just put tiny amounts of fecal material on the door, including cysts of parasites, many of which are very sticky and resistant to cleaning). So next, you come back through, touch the drip cups (maybe you already got drip cups going when you were cleaning the cages even...) and possibly transfer cysts or whatever into the water supply. Next you grab a cup, scoop some feeder bugs, go back along, touch a cage door to open it, touch the cup to put the feeders in the food dish you are now touching, touch the door again to close it, put the cup back into the feeder colony to scoop some more roaches or whatever and bam- transfer some cysts or whatever that are now carried by your feeders. Or maybe you take uneaten feeders (possibly after the lizard pooped down the side of the food bowl) and put them back into the feeder colony. Or maybe you free range your feeders inside the lizard cage once you offer them to the lizard, and they climb around through practically microscopic bits of lizard fecal material because you keep the cage very clean, and maybe they even eat some of it before the lizard eats them- reinfecting the lizard...

Etc, etc- basically it's the circle of life contained in captivity.

Even in very clean setups- stuff gets spread around more than most of us would care to imagine. The same, by the way, is true of human to human contact... (eeeeewwww!- all kinds of things involving face-licked dog owners and door to door salesman and grinning politicians who like to shake hands come to mind).

I think the odds that a grasshopper out in the yard is going to carry something that my lizard can catch are much smaller...

I'd be reluctant to feed a "wild caught" insect from around my home because the HOA employs an exterminator service that sprays...but if I caught it in the park nearby (it'a a huge natural park, nothing like you are probably imagining--no one goes there for a picnic...we live about 2 miles from one edge of it) I'd feel safe with those insects.

I have a question on this subject that maybe someone can answere. I am curious to know if wild cought crickets, grasshoppers exc were cought and feed for a day or two and then sorted through for any obvious signs of week or unhealthy one's would freezing them eliminate any unknown parasites these mite be carring? I have many pets that only eat live prey but I have an opossum that eats frozen mealies that I raise and frozen crickets that get to big for my frogs. I purchase her freeze dried snails, grasshoppers and silkworm larvae and there quite expensive considering how much she eats. I live in rural Missouri on 20 pesticide free Acer's full of grasshoppers and would love to make use of them but only if it would be safe. Any advice???

 

[insectovore]

Most of the parasites that cause problems in captivity have a direct lifecycle and your pets get them from other reptiles poop. Using disposable gloves, washing your hands often, not feeding them other reptiles directly, and preventing cross contamination of tools/water dishes will do more to prevent the spread of parasites than overthinking the food source. Having said that, if you keep the feeders in dirty cages or with dirty water sources they might develop some pretty nasty bacteria from that which could certainly make your reptile ill. If you look here you will see that blog author Frank fed wild caught insects to the zoo's animals for many years and those animals received regular fecal exams with no evidence that they were getting parasitic infections. An annual fecal exam is not a bad idea or if you have a lot of animals at least a spot check of some of them which can put your mind at ease. The other thing about parasites is often their numbers get high in captivity because of poor cage sanitation. removing feces ASAP would reduce that many parasites would grow in numbers to become a huge superinfection.