Why Not?

[jojackson]

somebody here said

Since you shouldn't purchase a chameleon really younger than 3 months, especially if its your first time..

Just wondering why not? Is a 3 month cham less likely to drop dead in inexperienced hands than a 3 week old? It makes no sense to me and seems to assume that A: the first time cham owner will be an ignorant fool who will surely kill it, or B: That a chameleon under 3 months is too hard for folk to care for properly. or C: anyone selling a cham under 3 months dosent care what happens to it after money changes hands, or D: 9 weeks makes them bulletproof ???

can somebody please explain?

 

[sandrachameleon]

Makes perfect sense to me. Baby chameleons are more delicate (for example they dehydrate faster) and should not be purchased by those who do not already have some experience and knowledge. Most first time chameleon owners do not have all of the knowledge necessary to properly care for an adult, much less a baby, and certainly being first time keepers they obviously have no first hand experience.
And yes its my opinion that anyone selling babies 3 months or under to anyone other than an experienced person is simply in it for the money, doesnt care about the chameleons and has quite likely done a poor job raising them.

 

[kinyonga]

There is also a "mortality rate"...once they reach 3 months of age they are less likely to die "for no apparent reason".

 

[jojackson]

and should not be purchased by those who do not already have some experience and knowledge.

Surely that should be the case for an animal of any species or age!

other than an experienced person

That makes the difference, but...

and has quite likely done a poor job raising them.

Why is that quite likely? You seem to have little faith in people!

There is also a "mortality rate"...once they reach 3 months of age they are less likely to die "for no apparent reason".

Anything more substantial on that to offer? Published papers perhaps? link? Id like to read it.
Mortality has a reason, cause and effect, weather thats genetic defect, weak breeding stock or poor husbandry, There is always a reason. Nothing

die "for no apparent reason".

In my experience

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Anything more substantial on that to offer? Published papers perhaps? link? Id like to read it.
Mortality has a reason, cause and effect, weather thats genetic defect, weak breeding stock or poor husbandry, There is always a reason. Nothing

Lynda may in fact have a published paper regarding this subject, and it's quite possible she wrote it.


-Brad

 

[lbesok]

A 3mo old has significantly greater chances of surviving the transition opposed to the 3wk old regardless of the keepers qualifications. From my experiences, which may not be as extensive compared to some people on this forum, I wouldn't recommend a chameleon purchase under 3mo. to anyone.
The high fatality rate of these youngsters is not necessarily due to the keepers expertise, but of course this is a contributing factor. After their first shed thy have increased mortality rates, and not as many will die. After the 3 month mark, the cham is well into it's growth spurt and in a more stable condition for it's new home. Instances of weak clutches occur, due to various reasons, and a single hatchling may not even survive past 3mo.
It would be interesting to find out if babies kept in a group = higher mortality rates with youngsters compared to isolated animals. Does anyone have success with keeping babies separated?

 

[royden]

Personally I'd rather buy one cage. Anything less then 4 or 5 months is going to need a starter cage, then an adult cage.

(that may not be the issue here)

 

[jojackson]

Where can I find Lynda's paper Brad?

Thanks for that Isobek although its states a fact but dosent really explain it. You expect a high mortality rate for certain species, majority of egg laying chams for instance appear to have large clutches, large clutches are generally synonmous with high mortaility due various factors, habitat, predation etc etc.

Never the less, assuming healthy breeding condition female, unrelated pair, and the 'captivity effect' I would expect the general mortality rate to decrease or be N/a in CB animals for the most part?

It would be interesting to find out if babies kept in a group = higher mortality rates with youngsters compared to isolated animals. Does anyone have success with keeping babies separated?

I fail to see the connection to mortality here im afraid, are you thinking disease? territorial induced/competive stress?
I expect hatchlings dont hang around to party together much in the wild but disperse (though perhaps in limited area) to limit predation? and increase the availability of food resouces (less competition)?

Please dont take offense at my questions/arguments here, I have a very enquiring mind that often
tends toward the need for science.

 

[kinyonga]

You won't find a paper written by me on this topic....there isn't one on the net. Some just fail to thrive. If 25 babies hatch out of a clutch its quite likely that at least one of them will die and you won't be able to stop it from happening. It can happen soon after the hatching but just as likely won't happen until the chameleon is a couple of months old. By getting a baby of 3 months or more, your chances improve that you won't have it happen to you.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I've got NO problems selling my veileds at 2 months of age. Shipping isn't a worry either (The fact that I won't ship when temps are extreme also plays into it).

Never lost one, never had one lost.

Now, me, personally - I would NEVER buy any other species under 3 months of age unless I was picking it up at the breeder's house. If I was selling another species, I wouldn't sell them before three months.

Veileds just really grow really fast. They're tough, and safe to ship at 2 months. There might be other species that are similar (ousties grow fast - but I don't know from firsthand experience).

The biggest reason is feeding: at two months old, they're ating easy-to-get-and-keep 1/4" crickets or bigger. They'll also eat small mealworms, superworms and silkworms - and little roaches. It's good to make sure the animal can survive 2-3 days of shipping - just in case UPS/DHL/FedEx screws up something - it happens. Hard to expect a tiny animal to survive an extra day in a box.

 

[Zeke20]

Where can I find Lynda's paper Brad?

Thanks for that Isobek although its states a fact but dosent really explain it. You expect a high mortality rate for certain species, majority of egg laying chams for instance appear to have large clutches, large clutches are generally synonmous with high mortaility due various factors, habitat, predation etc etc.

Never the less, assuming healthy breeding condition female, unrelated pair, and the 'captivity effect' I would expect the general mortality rate to decrease or be N/a in CB animals for the most part?

So what your saying is that because they have healthy parents and are CB with a suitable environment to live in they should just automatically live? If only life were so easy.

 

[jojackson]

Well those last two replys make some logical/economical sense anyway. The whole
3 month mortality thing is still pretty vague though.
3 months seems like a long time to be harboring any defect that was going to kill them anyway.
In my experience, many lizard species mortality % happens within the first few weeks to 1 month.
Personally I consider keeping a challenge and go about it armed with knowledge both written and personally learned (hands on) experience in as scientific a manner as possible.

Think about this, Zoos raise chamelians from eggs, (they dont wait for 3 month old babies) they do it successfully too, what do they know that we dont?

 

[Zeke20]

Well those last two replys make some logical/economical sense anyway. The whole
3 month mortality thing is still pretty vague though.
3 months seems like a long time to be harboring any defect that was going to kill them anyway.
In my experience, many lizard species mortality % happens within the first few weeks to 1 month.
Personally I consider keeping a challenge and go about it armed with knowledge both written and personally learned (hands on) experience in as scientific a manner as possible.

Think about this, Zoos raise chamelians from eggs, (they dont wait for 3 month old babies) they do it successfully too, what do they know that we dont?

They may know nothing more than you, I'd say it's the fact that they took the time (in school) to learn all the specifics about a certain animal and know how to care for it properly. Not to mention the fact that they more than likely have a little bit more money to spend on their chams and can create an environment that is completely controlled to suit what they need. They never miss a mist, a feeding, anything. Even then, they aren't going to come right out and say "oh yeah we have this many in the enclosure but we lost this many after hatching". Whose to say they don't lose just as many as anyone else breeding them?

 

[jojackson]

So what your saying is that because they have healthy parents and are CB with a suitable environment to live in they should just automatically live? If only life were so easy.

You are putting your words in my mouth friend. Im simply saying that the mortality % is an unknown and outside that it seems nobody is prepared to question what % is due to other factors, e.g poor husbandry, genetic defect/weakness etc.

Things die but there is always a reason, nothing ever just decides to die. Im saying within the variables I mentioned above, the mysterious 'Mortality rate' should sharply decrease, coupled with correct care/conditions most healthy hatchlings should thrive.
Infact its self evident since there are so many chams in captivity.

I think the mortality rate in CB animals is probably due more to dodgy breeders, just as things like hip displatia are due to dodgy breeders of dogs.

This is in itself, probably a better reason to very very careful where you buy and not buy "unestablished" (whatever that means) hatchlings!

Even then, they aren't going to come right out and say "oh yeah we have this many in the enclosure but we lost this many after hatching".

Why not? Breeding programs data benefits others, zoos, reptile parks etc. Why would they hide losses? This is purely subjective opinion on your part. Infact many zoo's do openly provide species breeding data which includes failures.

 

[wheresstimpy]

i have bought panther chameleons at 2 months before. They were my first too pets ever, i was in the 5th grade. They lived and breed successfully multiple times. But i have purchased 3-4 month old chams as well and had considerable issues fixing problem most likely caused by poor husbandry. The shorter amount of time the cham is with someone else the less problems you will have caused by any poor care on the breeders part (keep in mind they have many other babies to look after, not just one).

But...

If you think about a human baby, the older it gets the stronger it becomes physically as well as immune system strength. Stress can be considered to be one of a chameleons worst enemies, stress can lower the immune systems effectiveness and allow otherwise non occurring problem to arise.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Im not interested in responding further - it seems pointless

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."Things die but there is always a reason"...failure to survive/thrive MIGHT be due to some disorder that interferes with nutrient intake, absorption, metabolism. Improperly formed organs MIGHT be a cause. MAYBE a tumor, metabolic disorder, heart disease, kidney disease, genetic disorder, etc. MAYBE larger clutches mean that the female "runs out of nutrients" near the end and those hatchlings won't be okay??

Human babies also suffer from "failure to thrive" syndrome...they don't suckle and could die if its not solved.

You said..."I think the mortality rate in CB animals is probably due more to dodgy breeders"...I have often lost 1 or 2 hatchlings from a clutch of 20ish. The females who laid the clutches have lived long healthy lives and the babies I have kept back from the clutches also lived long healthy lives.

It has been documented in turtles too...
"Box turtle hatchlings get something called "failure to thrive syndrome." No one knows exactly what it is or what causes it. The hatchlings stop eating and waste away until they die. It goes relatively fast. There doesn't seem to be anything you can do."...
http://www.dianeszoo.com/floridaboxes.htm

Failure to thrive/survive happens.

 

[jojackson]

Im not interested in responding further - it seems pointless

Rofl Well im glad you responded to let us know you wont be responding! Are you from Ireland by any chance? LOL

Questioning and seeking answers and learning is never pointless!

 

[jojackson]

Kiyonga I agree, What I seek to learn is why, its not good enough for me to say "sh*t happens" and leave it at that, If we all took that attitude we'd still be in the dark ages!

one or two from a clutch of twenty dosent seem excessive. How old were they when they died? explain 'loss'. did the eggs rot/mould, went full term but died before hatching etc? seemed ok but died suddenly? what were its conditions at the time? its hatch weight? did it gain weight etc etc etc The data is the learning tool.

These days we tend to label anything not understood as a 'syndrome', I'd kick a Drs a**
if my child died and the death certificate said 'failure to thrive syndrome'!
I want to know!

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Kiyonga I agree, What I seek to learn is why, its not good enough for me to say "sh*t happens" and leave it at that, If we all took that attitude we'd still be in the dark ages!

Well, sometimes "sh*t happens"
Perhaps clutch sizes are as large as they are because there is an expected die off.
They just don't all always survive.
In captive situations 100% hatch and survival is much more common than it is (I am guessing) in a natural environment.
Sometimes, even in science, it is okay to know something happens without having all the hard knowledge to back up why.

One reason it may be better to raise babies to a certain age before selling them is the question of "ability to survive". At a certain age the odds are much better.

-Brad