Why no D3?
- Thread starter Jason H
- Start date
GooglezNvincent
New Member
the easy definition, i believe, it that D3 would bind with the calcium so your cham doesn't get enough calcium which leads to mbd.
I thought this is what i was told, but maybe i am wrong.
I thought this is what i was told, but maybe i am wrong.
dodolah
Retired Moderator
It is actually quite the reverse.
Without vitamin D3, Calcium intake is inefficient.
The problem with D3 is the fact that the vitamin is fat soluble.
Meaning that the excess cannot be flushed out of the body.
Instead it will remain deposited in fat, with this in mind comes the risk of over supplying your chameleon with too much D3 (Vitamin D poisoning) that can create an over calcification of bones, soft tissues, hearts, kidneys, etc.
Vit D is synthesized naturally by the body with the help of sunlight.
If you put your cham outside most of the time and if you live in area where sun is available all year around, I would cut down his D3 intake considerably.
Without vitamin D3, Calcium intake is inefficient.
The problem with D3 is the fact that the vitamin is fat soluble.
Meaning that the excess cannot be flushed out of the body.
Instead it will remain deposited in fat, with this in mind comes the risk of over supplying your chameleon with too much D3 (Vitamin D poisoning) that can create an over calcification of bones, soft tissues, hearts, kidneys, etc.
Vit D is synthesized naturally by the body with the help of sunlight.
If you put your cham outside most of the time and if you live in area where sun is available all year around, I would cut down his D3 intake considerably.
atsutane
New Member
OH OH OH!!! I KNOW THIS ONE!
http://www.chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=102
How calcium is absorbed and how Vitamin D3 is synthesized / acquired
In order to understand the main concepts of supplementing calcium, it is important to discuss Vitamin D3 in its relation to UVB lighting.
How is Vitamin D3 synthesized / acquired?
There are 2 primary methods for obtaining vitamin D3-
a) synthesizing it from exposure to ultraviolet B radiation
b) consuming a vertebrate that synthesized the hormone through exposure of the sun.
The production of vitamin D3 occurs as a result of the photosynthetic conversion of 7-dehydrocholesterol to pre-vitamin D3 (UVB represents the range of light considered important for synthesis of D3.) Pre-vitamin D3 is converted to vitamin D3 via a temperature dependent process. At this point the hormone is transported to the liver where it is hydroxylated to 25-hydroxyvitamin D3. The kidneys serve as the site for the final conversion of the hormone to its active form 1,25-hydroxyvitamin D3 (Calcitriol).
Why is Vitamin D3 important and how does it relate to calcium?
Vitamin D3 is an essential hormone that plays many different important physiological roles. Its role in calcium metabolism is probably its most recognized function.
Vitamin D3 stimulates intestinal absorption of both calcium and phosphorus, thus causing a rise in blood serum calcium and phosphorus concentrations. Without vitamin D3, ingested calcium would not be accessible to the body.
That pesky parathyroid
The parathyroid is an endocrine organ that regulates the production of parathyroid hormone (PTH). PTH is important to this discussion because it maintains serum calcium within normal limits by affecting bone resorption, renal calcium excretion, and metabolism of vitamin D3.
What do we need to know about the parathyroid?
If circulating serum calcium levels are low, the parathyroid turns on production of PTH and in turn, vitamin D3 is secreted by the kidney. PTH stimulates osteoclastic activity (break down of bone) to put the calcium and phosphorus in the blood. Vitamin D3 stimulates the intestinal absorption of BOTH calcium and phosphorus, thus raising both serum concentrations.
PTH also stimulates the kidneys to increase excretion of phosphorus without loosing the calcium. This is important because D3 increases phosphorus absorption in the gut and PTH causes the breakdown of bone, also increasing phosphorus levels.
What do nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism and renal secondary hyperparathyroidism have to do with this?
Most owners call all calcium deficiencies Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD). This is actually an incomplete term as there are many ways bone disease can be affected by metabolic pathways. The ones that concern us are nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism and renal secondary hyperparathyroidism.
Nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism (NSHP)-
NSHP is when there is an excessive production of parathyroid hormone (PTH) due to low serum calcium. Either there was 1) no available calcium in the diet, or 2) no available vitamin D3 to stimulate intestinal absorption. Regardless, no dietary calcium is absorbed into the bloodstream. Since no calcium is readily available for intestinal absorption, calcium is resorbed from the bones.
Consequences are weakening of the bones with secondary breaks and abscesses. Since calcium is also required all over the body, weakness, tremors, anorexia are also problems.
Renal secondary hyperparathyroidism (RSHP)-
RSHP is a consequence of renal disease and lost kidney function.
Remember- the kidney (among other things) was supposed to 1) synthesize D3 and 2) respond to PTH and excrete excess phosphorus.
Problem- No D3' No absorption of calcium
No D3' the parathyroid continues to stay on to stimulate production of D3. Increasing levels of PTH continue to 1) break down bone and 2) intestinally absorb calcium and phosphorus, but now can't get rid of the phosphorus because of decreased kidney function.
Consequences- if mild, metabolic bone degeneration and continued destruction of the kidneys. Hyperphosphatemia and hypercalcemia unchecked will both cause death.
http://www.chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=102
How calcium is absorbed and how Vitamin D3 is synthesized / acquired
In order to understand the main concepts of supplementing calcium, it is important to discuss Vitamin D3 in its relation to UVB lighting.
How is Vitamin D3 synthesized / acquired?
There are 2 primary methods for obtaining vitamin D3-
a) synthesizing it from exposure to ultraviolet B radiation
b) consuming a vertebrate that synthesized the hormone through exposure of the sun.
The production of vitamin D3 occurs as a result of the photosynthetic conversion of 7-dehydrocholesterol to pre-vitamin D3 (UVB represents the range of light considered important for synthesis of D3.) Pre-vitamin D3 is converted to vitamin D3 via a temperature dependent process. At this point the hormone is transported to the liver where it is hydroxylated to 25-hydroxyvitamin D3. The kidneys serve as the site for the final conversion of the hormone to its active form 1,25-hydroxyvitamin D3 (Calcitriol).
Why is Vitamin D3 important and how does it relate to calcium?
Vitamin D3 is an essential hormone that plays many different important physiological roles. Its role in calcium metabolism is probably its most recognized function.
Vitamin D3 stimulates intestinal absorption of both calcium and phosphorus, thus causing a rise in blood serum calcium and phosphorus concentrations. Without vitamin D3, ingested calcium would not be accessible to the body.
That pesky parathyroid
The parathyroid is an endocrine organ that regulates the production of parathyroid hormone (PTH). PTH is important to this discussion because it maintains serum calcium within normal limits by affecting bone resorption, renal calcium excretion, and metabolism of vitamin D3.
What do we need to know about the parathyroid?
If circulating serum calcium levels are low, the parathyroid turns on production of PTH and in turn, vitamin D3 is secreted by the kidney. PTH stimulates osteoclastic activity (break down of bone) to put the calcium and phosphorus in the blood. Vitamin D3 stimulates the intestinal absorption of BOTH calcium and phosphorus, thus raising both serum concentrations.
PTH also stimulates the kidneys to increase excretion of phosphorus without loosing the calcium. This is important because D3 increases phosphorus absorption in the gut and PTH causes the breakdown of bone, also increasing phosphorus levels.
What do nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism and renal secondary hyperparathyroidism have to do with this?
Most owners call all calcium deficiencies Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD). This is actually an incomplete term as there are many ways bone disease can be affected by metabolic pathways. The ones that concern us are nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism and renal secondary hyperparathyroidism.
Nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism (NSHP)-
NSHP is when there is an excessive production of parathyroid hormone (PTH) due to low serum calcium. Either there was 1) no available calcium in the diet, or 2) no available vitamin D3 to stimulate intestinal absorption. Regardless, no dietary calcium is absorbed into the bloodstream. Since no calcium is readily available for intestinal absorption, calcium is resorbed from the bones.
Consequences are weakening of the bones with secondary breaks and abscesses. Since calcium is also required all over the body, weakness, tremors, anorexia are also problems.
Renal secondary hyperparathyroidism (RSHP)-
RSHP is a consequence of renal disease and lost kidney function.
Remember- the kidney (among other things) was supposed to 1) synthesize D3 and 2) respond to PTH and excrete excess phosphorus.
Problem- No D3' No absorption of calcium
No D3' the parathyroid continues to stay on to stimulate production of D3. Increasing levels of PTH continue to 1) break down bone and 2) intestinally absorb calcium and phosphorus, but now can't get rid of the phosphorus because of decreased kidney function.
Consequences- if mild, metabolic bone degeneration and continued destruction of the kidneys. Hyperphosphatemia and hypercalcemia unchecked will both cause death.
graydon
New Member
d3 twice a month. Sunlight also doesnt give uv through windows.
Brad Ramsey
Retired Moderator
rep-cal is available from LLL with and without D3.
Honestly, I haven't supplemented with D3 for my animals in over a year.
As mentioned they produce this with sufficient UVB which a 5.0 provides.
The real sun is great but many of our chams never see it and manage just fine with the light.
-Brad
Honestly, I haven't supplemented with D3 for my animals in over a year.
As mentioned they produce this with sufficient UVB which a 5.0 provides.
The real sun is great but many of our chams never see it and manage just fine with the light.
-Brad
Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
Rep-Cal is the reason people fear overdosing on d3.
Rep-Cal with D3 contains 400,000 IU/Kg.
In comparison, Minerall-1 and the Zoo-Med contain around 4,000 IU/Kg
That's a huge difference.
If you use the Rep-Cal, yes you should only be dusting once or twice a month when using a UVB bulb.
If you are using Miner-All 1, or Zoo-Med w/ d3, you can dust a lot more often, even with a UVB bulb.
D3 is something that a chameleon would get EVERY day of its life in the wild, even on cloudy days there is UVB exposure.
If your chameleon doesn't spend much time at all by the UVB light, or if you have very fine screen at the top of your cage which reduces the amount of UVB getting through, or your chameleon's basking spot is more than 4 or 5 inches away from the UVB bulb - you should be using Calcium w/d3 at the 4,000 IU/Kg dose every day or every two days.
Moderation and consistency is key.
Rep-Cal with D3 contains 400,000 IU/Kg.
In comparison, Minerall-1 and the Zoo-Med contain around 4,000 IU/Kg
That's a huge difference.
If you use the Rep-Cal, yes you should only be dusting once or twice a month when using a UVB bulb.
If you are using Miner-All 1, or Zoo-Med w/ d3, you can dust a lot more often, even with a UVB bulb.
D3 is something that a chameleon would get EVERY day of its life in the wild, even on cloudy days there is UVB exposure.
If your chameleon doesn't spend much time at all by the UVB light, or if you have very fine screen at the top of your cage which reduces the amount of UVB getting through, or your chameleon's basking spot is more than 4 or 5 inches away from the UVB bulb - you should be using Calcium w/d3 at the 4,000 IU/Kg dose every day or every two days.
Moderation and consistency is key.
Elizadolots
New Member
What is the thinking on ZooMed's "ReptiVite"? I was handed a jar of ReptiVite with D3 when I bought my first chameleon and told I should use it every day and that it was perfectly safe not only for my chameleon (Fischers) but also for the Golden Tree Frog we had. After reading scary posts about D3 over dosing, I bought ReptiVite without D3....I've been alternating them.
Brad Ramsey
Retired Moderator
I would avoid any supplementation other than calcium with no D3 for a montane.
I gut load feeders with a variety of vegetables and dark leafy greens.
Montanes are very sensitive when it comes to supplements.
I use calcium a couple of times a week and (other than the gut loading) nothing else (including reptivite with no D3) ... ever.
-Brad
EazyBaKe0vEn
New Member
So all in all what would be the best schedule for a veiled Chameleon?
How many times a week would be best recommended for Vitamins with D3 and without?
Example..
3x days for supplements without D3 a week and 2x days with D3 a week?
What would be the most ideal schedule to provide your Cham with the vitamins he/she needs?
How many times a week would be best recommended for Vitamins with D3 and without?
Example..
3x days for supplements without D3 a week and 2x days with D3 a week?
What would be the most ideal schedule to provide your Cham with the vitamins he/she needs?
Brad Ramsey
Retired Moderator
How old is the animal?
Here is what I have written about it:
http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/2007/12/supplements.html
-Brad
Elizadolots
New Member
Thank you, Brad!
EazyBaKe0vEn
New Member
For a 5-6 month old Veiled Chameleon here is the schedule I have created for her using Zoo Meds Reptivite With D3 and Zoo Meds Reptivite Without D3.
Monday - With D3
Tuesday - Without D3
Wednesday - None
Thursday - Without D3
Friday - Without D3
Saturday - None
Sunday - Without D3
I only give my Cham D3 once a week. I use a 24in 5.0 UVB bulb. 12/12 cycle.
Is this okay?
Brad Ramsey
Retired Moderator
Looks fine.
You need to start considering how much you are feeding her and plan to reduce to every other day.
-Brad
You need to start considering how much you are feeding her and plan to reduce to every other day.
-Brad
dodolah
Retired Moderator
Just as information: Assuming that you have a glass window, the uvb from the sunlight will not be able to pass the glass.
EazyBaKe0vEn
New Member
Are you talking about reducing the amount of supplements or feeding her?
She eat's about 5-6 large crickets a day sometimes 7 and then give or take a couple of mealworms and/or wax worms for desert.
I do my very best to gutload her crickets very well. Should I be giving her Vitamin A supplements as well? I hear that people should be giving them VitA once or twice a month?
