Why do we want cage to dry out at night?

[jamest0o0]

So this has been commonly mentioned, by myself included in the past, but it kind of contradicts the natural way of things. If anything the cage should be more dry during the day's heat. Warmth+humidity/water+low air flow is also a recipe for bacterial growth. I know we still need to mist during the day for eye cleaning, drinking, etc. I am just curious what you all think about this.

 

[JacksJill]

I agree drying out is more important within reason during the heat of the day. Did you just listen to the last pod cast with Petr Necas?

 

[Angelwolf]

To keep fungus and mold at bay.

 

[JacksJill]

A current theory is that heat with high levels of humidity contributes to bacterial infections especially in montane species. Where if you have higher humidity at night when it's cooler you won't see this as commonly. So less humidity during the day but with opportunities to drink. All of this is coming from Petr Necas who studies Jackson's in the mountain areas of Kenya and is a big part of the Kenyan Xanth Project with Bill Strand.
Does this apply to Panthers and Veiled? I don't know. It is food for thought.

 

[jamest0o0]

I agree drying out is more important within reason during the heat of the day. Did you just listen to the last pod cast with Petr Necas?

No I didn't lol, but I heard he talked about that too. I need to listen to the podcasts more often. I just got this from reading random things and from talking to various keepers that have been to Madagascar. After thinking about it, kind of seems like common sense.

 

[jamest0o0]

Also heat and humidity just naturally cause bacterial growth as it is. I'd imagine it would apply to most animals. I have read things from Petr on Facebook before, he really knows his stuff.

 

[jamest0o0]

@Angelwolf fungus and mold make excellent springtail food! I guess for all the barebottom keepers, you'd want to avoid those things though. I've never seen mold grow out of control in an enclosure with proper ventilation, barebottom or not.

 

[Decadancin]

The idea is that chameleons get hydration during the day when they are active. Humidity is often added in captivity through misting, and too much moisture adds to the possibility of fungus, mold, etc. So drying out overnight is beneficial for maintaining a cleaner enclosure. If the enclosure dries out before lights out and one used a fogger for humidity at night it could be beneficial for some chams.

 

[Decadancin]

More of a problem would often be keeping plants healthy. Many that stay too wet don't do well. Also, perches and vines will often get moldy.

 

[JacksJill]

I like the idea of incorporating more natural husbandry but I think we have to be careful how far we go. Unless you build an island or mountain near the equator you will always need to account for the fact that you aren't working in the natural world and what works there may not work in captivity for a variety of factors we just don't know about yet and can't evaluate.
I'm not saying don't try things, just don't follow nature blindly.

 

[nightanole]

Because i dont like fishing rotted out sleeping sticks out of the water basin at 2am, particularly when when chameleon is still on it, and not a happy camper...

 

[jamest0o0]

The idea is that chameleons get hydration during the day when they are active. Humidity is often added in captivity through misting, and too much moisture adds to the possibility of fungus, mold, etc. So drying out overnight is beneficial for maintaining a cleaner enclosure. If the enclosure dries out before lights out and one used a fogger for humidity at night it could be beneficial for some chams.

I'm not saying don't mist during the day, just that it seems chameleons(according to petr necas and others) get a large part of their hydration fro. The humidity in the air. And that cool/humid night time are is apparently very beneficial to them. As a substrate user, I'm personally not as worried about the cleanliness(within reason of course). Poop, dead feeders, and mushrooms that pop up get consumed within a couple days. I go in at night sometimes and can see the cleaners eating everything.

The plants being healthy is a big thing. To counter that(especially for my parson's), I add a large amount of sand to the soil.

No disrespect of course, just friendly discussion!

 

[jamest0o0]

I like the idea of incorporating more natural husbandry but I think we have to be careful how far we go. Unless you build an island or mountain near the equator you will always need to account for the fact that you aren't working in the natural world and what works there may not work in captivity for a variety of factors we just don't know about yet and can't evaluate.
I'm not saying don't try things, just don't follow nature blindly.

I don't think many are following nature blindly, but incorporating the beneficial aspects of it where possible. There are tons of things in the natural world that I would not want to replicate. I've argued with some bio fanatics over this sort of thing. On the other hand, many people have had excellent success with using a more natural approach. It's about finding the balance, mannn

 

[JacksJill]

I agree with you just urging caution. If you follow the description of Kenya highlands then you wouldn't give water during the day at all for 5 parts of the year. I have reduced my mid day mistings and now do my longer ones early am & late pm and run a cool humidifier thru part of the night to bump humidity and help get my night time temperature drop.

 

[jamest0o0]

Same goes with Panthers, I've heard parts of Madagascar can go a very long time without rainfall, yet there they thrive.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

You are making a interesting point there sir @jamest0o0. I have, in the early morning in nature, seen wild chameleons just sitting there drinking the dew that collected on their cool bodies through the night. Chameleons will often position themselves in such a way at night that their face is the lowest point on their body. Could that be in order for them to drink the morning dew running to their mouths? I have also seen chameleons sleeping with the side of their faces against the stem of big leaves! And this I did see in the early mornings in South Africa! Now, as the morning dew collects in to bigger drops and glide down the branch of the leaf the chameleon sits there drinking away! Quite cool to see!

I also agree that keeping things as dry as is chameleon safe as possible during the day time when it is warmer to prevent growth of potentially harmful pathogens is a good idea!

Thanks for sharing your well taught through taughts with us @jamest0o0

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

So this has been commonly mentioned, by myself included in the past, but it kind of contradicts the natural way of things. If anything the cage should be more dry during the day's heat. Warmth+humidity/water+low air flow is also a recipe for bacterial growth. I know we still need to mist during the day for eye cleaning, drinking, etc. I am just curious what you all think about this.

Funny you posted this @jamest0o0 . I literally just read this from Petr Necas . It was on Fb . I my self often wonder this . It was a awesome article . I was going to pick Matt’s mind on this . You might be able to find the article . Awesome stuff !.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

You are making a interesting point there sir @jamest0o0. I have, in the early morning in nature, seen wild chameleons just sitting there drinking the dew that collected on their cool bodies through the night. Chameleons will often position themselves in such a way at night that their face is the lowest point on their body. Could that be in order for them to drink the morning dew running to their mouths? I have also seen chameleons sleeping with the side of their faces against the stem of big leaves! And this I did see in the early mornings in South Africa! Now, as the morning dew collects in to bigger drops and glide down the branch of the leaf the chameleon sits there drinking away! Quite cool to see!

I also agree that keeping things as dry as is chameleon safe as possible during the day time when it is warmer to prevent growth of potentially harmful pathogens is a good idea!

Thanks for sharing your well taught through taughts with us @jamest0o0

I’m so happy you posted this Matt . I was going to pick your brain on Monday . I read all about this yesterday on Fb . The article was by Petr Necac . He really has some fascinating article . I’m sure you have read every one . Thank you for your post .

 

[nick barta]

One of the concerns that constantly wet branches in an enclosed area where the chameleon cannot move much is that the bottom of the feet have little chance to dry out. Add to that the artificial twisty vines that seem to never dry out, you create an environment where feet stay wet most of the time. A recipe for foot skin problems, and even we humans experience that when moisture is trapped between the toes, things get nasty...CHEERS!

Nick

 

[Angelwolf]

@Angelwolf fungus and mold make excellent springtail food! I guess for all the barebottom keepers, you'd want to avoid those things though. I've never seen mold grow out of control in an enclosure with proper ventilation, barebottom or not.

The concern about mold and fungi lies in the fact that your cham is forced to live amongst it, not in potential overgrowth of either one. In the wild, a cham can, and will, relocate to avoid it, but in captivity, it can't. Mold and fungi spores can be inhaled by your cham and will lead to a very slow and painful death.