Which "Worm" causes a reaction in some chams?

[jajeanpierre]

I've never fed either wax worms or butter worms but doesn't one cause some sort of an allergic reaction in some chameleons? Which one is it?

What food os the highest, fattiest food? I have some pretty emaciated new imports and I would really like to get the some calorie-dense food into them.

I have access to black soldier fly larvae, but I wanted something with a much softer exterior. Yes I have silkworms but wanted something more and hornworms are just too expensive.

 

[Bush baby]

I READ that butter worms can cause a reaction in SOME chams; I personally have never seen it myself. I do notice however that when I feed butter worms, sometimes they pass through the body undigested and relatively whole...

 

[trickedoutbiker]

Both the wax worm and the butter worm are high in fat. Which one has more fat? I'm unable to answer that for you, sorry. I feed both to my panther chameleon 2-3 times a week as treats and have seen no ill effects or reactions from either, although that's not to be said it can't cause a reaction in other chameleons. I limit the amount to just a few of these worms total a week though, because since they are so fatty, they can be hard to digest and can absolutely come out nearly whole, just as "Bush baby" mentioned above. I've personally seen it myself as well in my chameleon's stool. Too many of the worms in a diet, and your chameleon might get constipated and have a hard time pooping as well, so keep that in mind. Great lil worms to add variety and help fatten up a cham a bit though for sure. They love them!

 

[jajeanpierre]

Sounds like they have the same problem of tough outer skin as black soldier fly larvae have. Anyone know where I can find the fat content comparison between BSF larvae and silkworms? I'll basically be force feeding them to a couple of pretty emaciated new imports. I can easily decapitate the BSF larvae and slit their outer coatings. I just didn't want anything to go through their really trashed gut undigested if I could avoid it. I think I'll stick to silkworms for this round of treatment. They have enough problems without having to deal with undigested fly larvae. (One is just loaded with coccidia and the other is loaded with giardia. At least I now have a reason and a solution for their failure to thrive.)

 

[trickedoutbiker]

Sounds like they have the same problem of tough outer skin as black soldier fly larvae have.

The wax worm and butter worm are actually very very soft, probably the softest feeders I've ever handled. No hard shells/skin at all. It's the HIGH FAT CONTENT that makes them hard to digest, not their shell. Eating too many sugary fatty foods in humans would cause constipation - same with giving too many wax worms or butter worms to a chameleon in a day or in a week. Think of them as candy or ice cream to your chameleon.... Good every once in a while, but not good to have all the time. If you have a local bait shop you can probably find both so you could at least check them out. I personally like turning most of my wax worms into moths because my cham goes nuts over anything that flies. The wax worm also uses up a lot of its fat content to turn into a moth, so the moth is actually a little better for the chameleon as far as fat content goes. I do feed the wax worm grubs about one grub per week though. The butter worms I give to my cham 1 or 2 a week. Butter worms are imported from Chili and usually turn into HUGE moths there, but when they are imported into the USA they are blasted with a small bit of radiation to prevent the worm from being able to pupate into a moth. This stops them from being able to turn into moths in the United States, as the moths are considered a pest here. Still make good treats as the worms though. Most reptiles love them. They have a very slight fruity-citrus smell to them and I'm sure they taste yummy! (To a reptile, that is )

 

[Rorschach]

i use butter worms as treats as well and have seen no reactions with my panthers or the Gracilior
They seem to really enjoy them they are colorful and do smell kinda sweet

 

[trickedoutbiker]

^^ where did you get the chart from if I may ask? If you do a Google search for "feeder insect chart" and go to images, there are many many different charts to look at and compare, including the one you posted here. Here's the Google search:

https://www.google.com/search?q=fee...PcDBoQ_AUIBigB#tbm=isch&q=feeder+insect+chart

The thing with these charts is, none of them are usually ever identical unless they are copycat charts from other charts. In the chart you shared, it's showing that butterworms only have a 5.21% fat content, a lot lower than superworms, crickets, and roaches..... and that it also has the highest calcium content of any feeder at 42.90% ....... but this cannot be true because a butterworm is mostly fat, whereas superworms, crickets, and roaches are composed of a lot less fat and more chitin and hard parts. Also, showing that a butterworm has a higher calcium content of 42.90% than a phoenix worm at 9.5% cannot be true as well, because phoenix worms / black soldier flies and their larvae, are PROVEN to have one of the HIGHEST calcium contents of any feeders that are available.

There are just so many different charts out there that the information is a bit conflicting in all of them. So which one do you follow then?

This specific chart here shows completely different information than the one posted above, but I believe it seems to be more in par with what is scientifically known to be fact regarding some of the feeders:
http://www.geckotime.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/table-large.png

With that ^^ chart, Phoenix worms are the ONLY ones on the entire list where the calcium content is significantly higher than the phosphorous content, and this is the reason that you never have to dust your phoenix worms or black soldier flies with calcium dust while you have to do it with the rest of your insects to even out the calcium-to-phosphorous ratio.

Now, I'm not saying that this chart is 100% accurate, as I truly believe that there is no chart out there that is 100% accurate..... but I do believe that it is more correct than the one shared by "Rorschach" based on what I know to be true information regarding the phoenix worms in various studies done on them as nutritional feeders.

There needs to be a new study done on the comparisons and a new, updated, completely accurate chart needs to be made somehow. If you do that same Google search and start going through the sites that pop up at the top of the list, you can find a lot more charts that won't even show up when you click IMAGES after your search. This is what I mean about so many conflicting charts. And most charts don't list all the insects available to us reptile keepers, just some.

I'm not 100% sure which chart from which site is the most accurate..... When I was doing my own research quite a while ago, I compared all of the charts I found and made a best guess based on the info I found to be most consistent within all the charts I viewed.

I wish this was a part of the RESOURCES section of this site so that way we can all have quick access to valuable, true information. I'ma cross my fingers and hope a new study is done one day and that info is added to the site here.

 

[trickedoutbiker]

hornworms are just too expensive.

Not only that but they are more water than they are fat and too many of them in a diet can cause super runny stools. When I feed off hornworms, I always see the whitest urates ever and sometimes some runny stools. Super good for hydration though. Definitely an expensive feeder though If they were a bit cheaper then I'd have them on hand most of the time.... but I guess I will stick to getting a cup every other month with those....

 

[KapitalJ]

@trickedoutbiker what do you typically pay for a hornworm?

my local reptile shop sells them for $2/ea. (CAD) Found them at Petsmart this past weekend for $1.50/ea. I dont normally go to Petsmart but I was out with my 2yr old daughter and we were right beside it, she asked me if we could go in and see the kitties... How could I say no to my little princess??

 

[Rorschach]

I appreciate your response and i now regret posting that image due to the lack of research i did it was just a reference photo that i used because i was told they are one of the best things you can feed....and againg i should have done more research on it. I do appreciate the time and input that you have into this. Its definitely got me double checking everything now. I apologize again for any misinformation and posting on such with out proper facts
On a positive note. There were no bad reactions health wise

 

[trickedoutbiker]

@trickedoutbiker what do you typically pay for a hornworm?

I purchase them by the cup instead of individually because it is cheaper. I knew Petco and Petsmart started sellin em because my gf gets her dog food at Petsmart and I've seen them there before for a little over $3 a piece. Even saw a thread here this past week where someone was excited they found them there but they were over $3 per worm. So if your Petsmart is sellin em for $1.50 then that must be a sale going on... lol.

When buying, I typically purchase a cup with 25-30 smalls. I get the smalls because they grow SO FAST. As for price, with the cups plus shipping, I'm paying around 54-64 cents per worm. (54 cents per worm if there are 30 in the cup and 64 cents per worm if there are 25 in the cup. Cups say 25-30 on them and there is always an overcount so it's usually about 27 or 28 worms.)

 

[KapitalJ]

Prices may be different as I am in Canada...

Buying a cup sounds like a cheaper route to go!!

 

[trickedoutbiker]

I appreciate your response and i now regret posting that image due to the lack of research i did it was just a reference photo that i used because i was told they are one of the best things you can feed....and againg i should have done more research on it. I do appreciate the time and input that you have into this. Its definitely got me double checking everything now. I apologize again for any misinformation and posting on such with out proper facts
On a positive note. There were no bad reactions health wise

No reason to apologize, for anything. Like I said, there are SOOOO MANY charts out there and the info is all conflicting on most of them. When I want to know something new, I research like a mad man and check, double check, and triple check things. Info one place may be completely different than info at another place, so I cross examine everything I find when I research, even taking notes with a piece of paper sometimes. Then I figure out what seems more consistent and go with that.

 

[trickedoutbiker]

The thing with these charts is, none of them are usually ever identical unless they are copycat charts from other charts. In the chart you shared, it's showing that butterworms only have a 5.21% fat content, a lot lower than superworms, crickets, and roaches..... and that it also has the highest calcium content of any feeder at 42.90% ....... but this cannot be true because a butterworm is mostly fat, whereas superworms, crickets, and roaches are composed of a lot less fat and more chitin and hard parts. Also, showing that a butterworm has a higher calcium content of 42.90% than a phoenix worm at 9.5% cannot be true as well, because phoenix worms / black soldier flies and their larvae, are PROVEN to have one of the HIGHEST calcium contents of any feeders that are available.

Found a couple small typos in my statement there with the values, but my statement still stands nonetheless even with the corrected values. Guess that's what I get for trying to post the comment quickly before my lunch break here at work. That's why I came back to re-check it and make sure there were no errors. I hate leaving typos. It's past the time to allow me to edit it, so please let me re-type that out with the CORRECT values in bold and give the wrong values a s̶t̶r̶i̶k̶e̶t̶h̶r̶o̶u̶g̶h̶, telling the correction I am making in red..... That's totally my bad...... Anyways....

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The thing with these charts is, none of them are usually ever identical unless they are copycat charts from other charts. In the chart you shared, it's showing that butterworms only have a 5.21% fat content, a lot lower than superworms, crickets, and roaches..... and that it also has the highest calcium content of any feeder at 4̶2̶.̶9̶0̶%̶ 42.90 mg/100g (I had this as a percentage before, sorry)....... but this cannot be true because a butterworm is mostly fat, whereas superworms, crickets, and roaches are composed of a lot less fat and more chitin and hard parts. Also, showing that a butterworm has a higher calcium content of 4̶2̶.̶9̶0̶%̶ 42.90 mg/100g (I again, had this as a percentage before, sorry) than a phoenix worm at 9̶.̶5̶%̶ 34 mg/100g (I had this as the "Fat %" value before, sorry) cannot be true as well, because phoenix worms / black soldier flies and their larvae, are PROVEN to have one of the HIGHEST calcium contents of any feeders that are available.

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Again, that's my bad. I figured there might be an error with how fast I was typing and glancing at that chart real quick. I guess next time I will wait until AFTER my lunch break to post a reply as to not include errors. That's what this community gets for talking about deer jerky with me on that other thread this morning. Ya'll made me so hungry, I almost wanted to run to the lunchroom. Lol. I love this place.

Carry on.