ataraxia
Avid Member
I swear to god...LOL
Where can i buy a Parsons Chameleon?
- Thread starter BatCity93
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I swear to god...LOL
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Working with any species of chameleon in captivity is a or should be a privilege of accomplished chameleon conservation in their native habitat. Just to shed some light on the issue in Europe even though they have their fair share of smuggling, currently have got accomplished breeders of Calumma parsonii. In fact many of you may be overlooking German forums member rantotro who consistently has bred Parsonii for the past five years and has documented and posted this on these forums. Actually last week he just hatched out a baby Orange Eye after 16 months unassisted and has got pictures (on another Forums).
https://www.chameleonforums.com/calumma-parsonii-parsonii-84839/
As well the phase of Parsonii that are seen in the USA Orange Eye White Lips by far have got the largest range of any other phase of Parsonii and from my research are protected by many large national parks and preserves such as the extremely large Makira Nature Preserve
http://news.mongabay.com/2012/0817-makira-madagascar-wcs.html
and Zanhamena National Park. I think small quotas in the future of Orange Eyes to support breeders such as Andreas who is consistently breeding Parsonii is something I can approve of.
However I concur conservation of Madagascar's forests have got to continue and sustainable agricultural practices instead of slash and burn agriculture have got continue to be taught to the Malagasy farmers and people.
I would attempt to work with another species of chameleon from the genus Calumma before working with a Parsonii. Which currently is not possible in the USA.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/calumma-parsonii-parsonii-84839/
As well the phase of Parsonii that are seen in the USA Orange Eye White Lips by far have got the largest range of any other phase of Parsonii and from my research are protected by many large national parks and preserves such as the extremely large Makira Nature Preserve
http://news.mongabay.com/2012/0817-makira-madagascar-wcs.html
and Zanhamena National Park. I think small quotas in the future of Orange Eyes to support breeders such as Andreas who is consistently breeding Parsonii is something I can approve of.
However I concur conservation of Madagascar's forests have got to continue and sustainable agricultural practices instead of slash and burn agriculture have got continue to be taught to the Malagasy farmers and people.
I would attempt to work with another species of chameleon from the genus Calumma before working with a Parsonii. Which currently is not possible in the USA.
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Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Ferdy the IUCN RED List has got Calumma Parsonii listed as Near Threatened that is the second lowest ranking of a species out of a list of five choices being alive in the wild with Least Concern being the lowest. The primary forest is under serious threat however Parsonii are now being found in other habitats other than just primary forests. They have been documented as living in agricultural orchards of citrus and coffee groves and secondary reforested areas. These populations require studying though before any kind of quotas could or would be established.
Kent67
Retired Moderator
Definitely not here. What he's been able to do the last few years is awesome. However, two things. First, aren't all of his babies being cut out of the eggs now? That's not quite the "figuring them out" I meant but very close. Second, who else has hatched them five years in a row, ever (outside Madagascar)?
ChamMan7
Established Member
I am not saying there is absolutely no success with Parsonii at all. I am just saying that with Madagascar in its current state, I think the last thing that people should be doing is removing species from the wild (which is illegal with a few species, including Parsonii if I am not mistaken?). Yes, Andreas is doing amazing things with Parsonii; however, you cant base the success of an entire captive population on just a few breeders having success with them. As far as I know of, he is just about the only one having consistent success with these guys. It would be great to hear him chime in on this!
This is not correct. There are more "established" breeders in Europe (although Andreas was first one whom I know that hatched more than 1 clutch) those bred them more times during last years (I personally know 4 but believe there are more in as minimum 3 European countries).
I do not want use word consistently, but if you have one pair and during past 5 years hatched 3 clutches it comes close.
Their offspring is growing. There are virtually no problems with them (you need caclulate that they are in hands of most experienced keepers, we here in Europe do not purchase parsonii just for pleasure or simply try it after few veileds) compared with imported animals. In few years there will be enough parsonii if even part of breeders those have CB babies will produce next generation. What is very, very good that i know personally 12 purchased CB parsonii (by friends, mine included) and they are ALL ALIVE and the oldest ones already produced eggs those are cooking now.
You need just calculate that it last over 4 years from moment when you purchase baby parsonii to get offspring even if you "win straigth the first round" so it is long process...
In present time there is almost no market for "illegal animals" as minimum for orange eyes, because everybody could purchase the cheaper CB ones. To be impatient and purchase adult animal will not speed production of babies because until they adapt babies will grow up and by parsonii imported animals adapt just in minority. In this case I believe the success (there is lot of patience and consistent daily care needed, but no miracles) of captive breeding preserves the population in nature at best. Ok, some fresh blood demand will be in future but this will be exception.
I have had tons of imported parsonii in 90ties. My suggestion is: buy TRUE CB ones. You will avoid a lot of frustration. We learned a lot since than and now we know exactly what to do, but still...
I do not want use word consistently, but if you have one pair and during past 5 years hatched 3 clutches it comes close.
Their offspring is growing. There are virtually no problems with them (you need caclulate that they are in hands of most experienced keepers, we here in Europe do not purchase parsonii just for pleasure or simply try it after few veileds) compared with imported animals. In few years there will be enough parsonii if even part of breeders those have CB babies will produce next generation. What is very, very good that i know personally 12 purchased CB parsonii (by friends, mine included) and they are ALL ALIVE and the oldest ones already produced eggs those are cooking now.
You need just calculate that it last over 4 years from moment when you purchase baby parsonii to get offspring even if you "win straigth the first round" so it is long process...
In present time there is almost no market for "illegal animals" as minimum for orange eyes, because everybody could purchase the cheaper CB ones. To be impatient and purchase adult animal will not speed production of babies because until they adapt babies will grow up and by parsonii imported animals adapt just in minority. In this case I believe the success (there is lot of patience and consistent daily care needed, but no miracles) of captive breeding preserves the population in nature at best. Ok, some fresh blood demand will be in future but this will be exception.
I have had tons of imported parsonii in 90ties. My suggestion is: buy TRUE CB ones. You will avoid a lot of frustration. We learned a lot since than and now we know exactly what to do, but still...
ChamMan7
Established Member
Im not saying there isnt any success at all. There are some who are having success, but getting a few clutches is not consistency, it is luck with this species. Andreas has done incredibly scientific research and observation and is one of, I am sure a few people, that are starting to figure them out; however, I dont see how it can be argued that parsonii are thriving in captivity ... YET.
Where are all these supposed captive bred baby parson you are seeing? And where in the world are you seeing captive bred babies that are cheaper than wild caught animals?
SSimsswiSS
Avid Member
I see many opinions here, and discussion is good. Sometimes I get so focused on something that I lose these other views. So I thank the forums for this.
I started with a ten year plan to "figure them out", and they are not throphies to me. Like all things parsonii, progress is slow. But I have to say after 6 years progress is slowly being made. We will never be able to compete with Mother nature in the reproduction area of this species, but getting better at it each year. I spend 2 to 3 hours out of everyday growing "other" insects for their diet. And diet seems to be the greatest difference in captive bahavior, of females producing eggs "naturally".
I have been luck enough to see enough parsonii in my time working with them, to spot a smuggled import, from a captive hatched and raised animal. And sadly most imports fall into the hands of someone who thinks it would be really cool to own one. And the slow death of the animal soon follows. So if you have a extra two grand, just flush it down the toilet, you'll feel better, and save other animals.
I will try really hard, not to post pictures of my group, here on the forums. As others have mentioned, it just perpetuates the wants of others. Unless I "figure them out"" in the next decade. Then I'll just have to share baby pictures.
Sorry for all the "I's"
I started with a ten year plan to "figure them out", and they are not throphies to me. Like all things parsonii, progress is slow. But I have to say after 6 years progress is slowly being made. We will never be able to compete with Mother nature in the reproduction area of this species, but getting better at it each year. I spend 2 to 3 hours out of everyday growing "other" insects for their diet. And diet seems to be the greatest difference in captive bahavior, of females producing eggs "naturally".
I have been luck enough to see enough parsonii in my time working with them, to spot a smuggled import, from a captive hatched and raised animal. And sadly most imports fall into the hands of someone who thinks it would be really cool to own one. And the slow death of the animal soon follows. So if you have a extra two grand, just flush it down the toilet, you'll feel better, and save other animals.
I will try really hard, not to post pictures of my group, here on the forums. As others have mentioned, it just perpetuates the wants of others. Unless I "figure them out"" in the next decade. Then I'll just have to share baby pictures.
Sorry for all the "I's"
Attachments
Excuse me but from North Virginia it is to far see tiny parsonii babies in Europe 
Trust me they are here. Truth is that there is still "waiting line" and every breeder has friends those will gladly help him with these. (this is just half ironically. If you have 30 babies housed individually than it is lot of work)
Look, if are hatched even just 5 cluthes yearly (probably more during last 2 years) than sale 150-200 babies in whole Europe this is just "fart in the wind". No problem, trust me. But this has consequence that there are 50-100 females waiting to copulate or even some (very few of them I think) already produced first clutch. You do not see them until now, and incubate parsonii is most difficult problem (my animals produced hundreds eggs in past but I never hatched any, I simple did not get idea of 2 cold periods) but if they will pop up this will be supereruption
Btw, there are no legal imorted parsonii in Europe. Even the "black" animals must be sold like CB and in past were (in very low numbers) but for higher price like you can get true CB now. Truth is that all parsonii breeders are somehow selling them in "good hands" and for example Andreas itself set the prices bellow the "standard" value of black imports simple trying to fight against them. And everybody follows this price policy. If the price of CB will be set above, they probably still will be sold (because this is normal that CB costs more and I personally never hesitate pay more for Cb animal) but they will be sold more cheaper black market animals as well. But in last year I see no "obviously wild" parsonii (I look closely to every and I believe i have good eye for it) and prior I saw them. Not often but saw. Ask yourself what will you do in situation like this one, owing some "black channel" through that you can bring few animals: will you start price war with true breeders or import some other animal species?
Export something abroad is very difficult paperwork, especially in case like this one when the legal status of parent animals will be questioned so I am afraid it is long way to Tipperary, ehm USA. You need breed them yourself there, you have enough parent animal there. I am dreaming a many years to see parsonii in well established captive population but now it looks more and more probable.
Trust me they are here. Truth is that there is still "waiting line" and every breeder has friends those will gladly help him with these. (this is just half ironically. If you have 30 babies housed individually than it is lot of work)Look, if are hatched even just 5 cluthes yearly (probably more during last 2 years) than sale 150-200 babies in whole Europe this is just "fart in the wind". No problem, trust me. But this has consequence that there are 50-100 females waiting to copulate or even some (very few of them I think) already produced first clutch. You do not see them until now, and incubate parsonii is most difficult problem (my animals produced hundreds eggs in past but I never hatched any, I simple did not get idea of 2 cold periods) but if they will pop up this will be supereruption
Btw, there are no legal imorted parsonii in Europe. Even the "black" animals must be sold like CB and in past were (in very low numbers) but for higher price like you can get true CB now. Truth is that all parsonii breeders are somehow selling them in "good hands" and for example Andreas itself set the prices bellow the "standard" value of black imports simple trying to fight against them. And everybody follows this price policy. If the price of CB will be set above, they probably still will be sold (because this is normal that CB costs more and I personally never hesitate pay more for Cb animal) but they will be sold more cheaper black market animals as well. But in last year I see no "obviously wild" parsonii (I look closely to every and I believe i have good eye for it) and prior I saw them. Not often but saw. Ask yourself what will you do in situation like this one, owing some "black channel" through that you can bring few animals: will you start price war with true breeders or import some other animal species?
Export something abroad is very difficult paperwork, especially in case like this one when the legal status of parent animals will be questioned so I am afraid it is long way to Tipperary, ehm USA. You need breed them yourself there, you have enough parent animal there. I am dreaming a many years to see parsonii in well established captive population but now it looks more and more probable.
Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
Is that why no one posts photos of their parsonii except Jann, because you guys are worried lots of other people will somehow find them available and pay 2-3k that most of them don't have?
No disrespect to anyone, but that sounds like weaksauce to me. Everyone says they want one, but many of them also say they want a Faly and you don't see them all spending the $500-600 on one either. I want a pony too, but I'm not actually going to get one. Just because people say they wish they had one or would like to buy one eventually doesn't mean that more than 2% of them are serious, people just like to say things.
Perhaps if we saw more of them they'd actually loose their mytique a little and it wouldn't be like a unicorn sighting any more. The more something is exclusive and hidden away the more it is coveted. So perhaps you guys are doing the opposite of what you intend.
No disrespect to anyone, but that sounds like weaksauce to me. Everyone says they want one, but many of them also say they want a Faly and you don't see them all spending the $500-600 on one either. I want a pony too, but I'm not actually going to get one. Just because people say they wish they had one or would like to buy one eventually doesn't mean that more than 2% of them are serious, people just like to say things.
Perhaps if we saw more of them they'd actually loose their mytique a little and it wouldn't be like a unicorn sighting any more. The more something is exclusive and hidden away the more it is coveted. So perhaps you guys are doing the opposite of what you intend.
sdheli420
Avid Member
exactly what im doing right now...its a really big responsibility (almost as much as a child with a disability)
Niels Pedersen
Established Member
If I remember correct, four people in europe breed and hatched C.parsonii in 2012.
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
The clutch that are hatching now have not been assist hatching. You should read what he's been doing it is an idea similar to one of yours. He has been posting what he has been doing I think the other European breeders are not to far off.
I have been posting pictures of Matty? Your calling all the forums Parsonii keepers weak sauce? And you misspelled weak sauce there should be a space.
They are not members to these forums though.
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Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
No, that the reason for not sharing photos is weaksauce (which is fine as is, check urban dictionary good sir!) The majority of parsonii keepers share a couple photos four times a year, on average. I didn't know that was the reason why, and now that I do I'm very surprised. And doubtful that it's having the intended effect, personally.
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
I'm curious why don't we post pictures of our Parsonii?
Todnedo
Avid Member
How many eggs do you have Kent?
Solid Snake
Avid Member
I knew this thread would be alright, just needed a good push...
I agree, sort of like saying if women didnt wear revealing clothing, they wouldnt get raped.
I agree, sort of like saying if women didnt wear revealing clothing, they wouldnt get raped.
Ferdy Timmerman
Member
I read the page and I'm familiar with IUCN. Without reading the rest of the page or knowing anything about IUCN, however, the classification of "Near Threatened" should be alarming enough. But in this case, their population declined 15-20% (but probably closer to 30%) over the past 15-18 years, and is still declining. Furthermore, the page says parsonii is closer to qualifying for an even more serious threat classification (Vulnerable) than for a lesser class (Least Concern).
They might live in agricultural areas or secondary forest, but I believe they still depend on primary forest for future existence.
Quotas should not be established before habitat degradation is halted and their population has been at least stable once more for a number of years.
Until that time, people shouldn't buy parsonii, since it will only keep illegal bussiness alive. There are enough species to work with that are far less threatened in the wild, offered for sale from legal sources, and way easier to care for.
If you (speaking in general) are fascinated by the size or looks of parsonii, go find them in the wild and let Malagasy people know their primary forest is worth more in the long run if not slashed and burned.
