When to use 10.0 or 5.0 UVB

[nightanole]

You sure they were not talking about the evil 2007 compact florescent bulbs that were putting out 4x the sun? Im running 10.0 over screen on the cham cage, and a 10.0 in the cage of the beardy tank.

To be honest im not sure how much lighting is needed. Even in 1995 with t12 vitalites with magnet starts i never had a case of MBD, and im sure those put out 10x less uvb than todays t8 10.0's.

 

[BocaJan]

I disagree with the comment that 10.0 can kill your cham. I definately would like to hear from our two vets to see if they counter what my very experienced herp vet tells me.

 

[Chameleopatrick]

I disagree with the comment that 10.0 can kill your cham. I definately would like to hear from our two vets to see if they counter what my very experienced herp vet tells me.

Saying that a bulb that emits 10 percent of its energy as UVB will kill your chameleon is a false statement. Simply inaccurate.

 

[draftgirl]

Great thread if not a little confusing. I also use the 5.o and had also heard about the 10.0 being much more than was good. Hmmm I also lalso use larger enclosures and do some natural UVB. I'll keep my eye on this thread if anyone has more detailed info.

 

[fluxlizard]

To be honest im not sure how much lighting is needed. Even in 1995 with t12 vitalites with magnet starts i never had a case of MBD, and im sure those put out 10x less uvb than todays t8 10.0's.
Reply With Quote

I've posted this before on this forum- but because like you i go back in time with chameleons before the lizard specialty tubes, I successfully used regular old vita-lite tubes in el cheapo $5 counter fixtures at the beginning without any MBD problems. Later I used Blacklight tubes with normal flourescents and then because of something I read, combined with the local electrical supply telling me the UV output was the same as vita-lite, for a few years I was using chroma 50s only until lizard specialty tubes were locally available to me. I only found out the chroma 50s did not put out UVB after joining this forum a couple of years ago LOL.

Under the chroma 50s I produced at least panthers and veileds, as well as some others (probably montiums, quads, campani, maybe carpets and oustallets those years). I know I went from egg hatchlings to adults laying good eggs hatching babies again under artificial lighting without UVB indoors with panthers and veileds at least. (I'm not recommending this- I didn't know I didn't have UVB at the time. UVB is a safety net and less dietary d3 safer than more like I used in those days). Not sure about the others. Later I moved to sunlight all summer and a variety of lizard tubes winters, depending on what was available and on sale- flukers, zoo med, etc. I'm not sure some of the brands in those days were much better than the vita light.

I never had MBD show up. But then again I was dusting with rep-cal with d3 pretty much every feeding unless I was using a multivitamin. Although I tend to feed every couple of days and enough that there are a few around the next day and rep-cal doesn't stick very long so I suppose it wasn't on a percentage of feeders...

Because of those days I tend to be a little relaxed about my views when it comes to UVB and vitamin d3. I think people sometimes get a little too uptight about these two topics. They are an important part of husbandry, but probably have a much wider range of safety than is sometimes believed. Personally, it would take some MBD creeping in or bad eggs before I felt I needed to invest in a light reader for example... That's just me and my budget- I enjoy reading the findings of those with the readers.

I didn't mean my previous post to advocate the 10.0s over something else- only to relate my experience using them apparantly safely the past couple of years during the winter. I use them because I have fairly large enclosures and the UV output is supposed to last longer so the bulbs don't have to be replaced as often. I'm bad to replace my bulbs so I figure it is a good investment for me. 5.0s are much better than vita-lites and will do the job. LOL

 

[carol5208]

When you see something like this on a website from a successful breeder who has been in the business for 32 years, you take note. I am not disuputing the 10.0's for those of you who use them and are raising healthy chameleons. I am going to put an email into Ed and Liddy Kammer again and see if I cannot get an answer. There must be a reason why they have this posted on the website. I think experience speaks for itself, so I will find out if they had some type of issue and that is why they do not use them. I have never used a 10.0 for this reason. When you are starting out and the breeder tells you NOT to use something, you more than likely take their advce. When I started seeing people using the 10.0's on here with no problems I became curious as to why they would make this statement. I will try again and see if I can get an answer. I am friend with them on FB so I will shoot them a message on there also.

 

[carol5208]

Saying that a bulb that emits 10 percent of its energy as UVB will kill your chameleon is a false statement. Simply inaccurate.

I am in no way saying I agree with it, just throwing it out there considering it was the Kammers who were the source. I have been very curious as to why they have this on their website! I am still working on getting the answer!!!

 

[drcrossfire]

I am in no way saying I agree with it, just throwing it out there considering it was the Kammers who were the source. I have been very curious as to why they have this on their website! I am still working on getting the answer!!!

Baby chameleons are susceptible to excessive UV exposure. Since most of what they sell are smaller chameleons, death can occur with 10.0 bulbs. Seems to me like they are just being cautious since many chameleon owners are not willing to do all of the research necessary to establish their own opinions on products.

 

[carol5208]

Baby chameleons are susceptible to excessive UV exposure. Since most of what they sell are smaller chameleons, death can occur with 10.0 bulbs. Seems to me like they are just being cautious since many chameleon owners are not willing to do all of the research necessary to establish their own opinions on products.

I got a feeling there are people who use the 10.0's on young ones that may respond. Kammers does not state:" do not use on babies". They also sell adult holdbacks. If that is what they mean, they should specify. It is not like the babies are not going to grow into adults.

 

[Chameleopatrick]

Baby chameleons are susceptible to excessive UV exposure. Since most of what they sell are smaller chameleons, death can occur with 10.0 bulbs. Seems to me like they are just being cautious since many chameleon owners are not willing to do all of the research necessary to establish their own opinions on products.

What is your metric for determining "excessive"? Just curious...

 

[drcrossfire]

Just what I was told by some experienced breeders on the forums and real life. I have no quantitative analysis or significant experience on the matter. I'm sure there are others that can chime in on it.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I used to be in the category of "5.0 is for tropical, 10.0 is for desert" based on people saying a 10.0 could burn chams. That was a while ago though because despite the claims I have never actually seen it or even heard of it happening in an actual life case. Thermal burns from basking lights sure, but not specifically from UVB. Seems to me like another of those parroted myths that no one seems to have any proof of. I don't claim to be a lighting expert, but I will say I'm using a 10.0 over my 36" tall panther cages and have seen no ill effects. I have a 5.0 over my other same height cages to compare for differences in behavior or coloration and so far I don't really see a difference. I'd love to have a UVB meter to compare the two better, but that's still on the wish list...

In my opinion, there is no evidence to support that it is dangererous to use a 10.0 for adult chameleons at this time.

 

[Decadancin]

I used to be in the category of "5.0 is for tropical, 10.0 is for desert" based on people saying a 10.0 could burn chams. That was a while ago though because despite the claims I have never actually seen it or even heard of it happening in an actuasexual life case. Thermal burns from basking lights sure, but not specifically from UVB. Seems to me like another of those parroted myths that no one seems to have any proof of. I don't claim to be a lighting expert, but I will say I'm using a 10.0 over my 36" tall panther cages and have seen no ill effects. I have a 5.0 over my other same height cages to compare for differences in behavior or coloration and so far I don't really see a difference. I'd love to have a UVB meter to compare the two better, but that's still on the wish list...

In my opinion, there is no evidence to support that it is dangererous to use a 10.0 for adult chameleons at this time.

Sounds like we all may have fallen into the trap. Just 'cause it says "tropical" and "desert" doesn't mean that's totally accurate. I'd love to see what the average UVB in the native environment would be. Hmmm.

So, goes back to my question... Anyone recommend a light meter with all the bells and whistles that doesn't break the bank?

 

[drcrossfire]

While the average UVB in their environment would be beneficial to know.. there are many factors to consider. When designing these products, I'm sure one of the major factors considered was that in the jungle, there is lots of leaf cover. In the desert, there is not. This would mean reptiles in the desert would be exposed to more UV than jungle dwellers. The adjustment in UV output is most likely related to this.

Ideally, we need to find more information on their basking habits in the wild. If babies are always under brush at lower heights, a 5.0 seems more logical. If adults are always out in the canopy exposed to sunlight, 10.0 would make sense.

The only way this will get figured out is with a long term study on heath and growth rates. We can speculate all we want though.

 

[nightanole]

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/skintests.htm

Kind of interesting. According to this my oust blocks double the uv as a panther.

Still as another site said, bulbs are horribly marked. 10.0 bulbs put out 10% uvb light. Well is it a 40 watt, spot, etc? Or as arcadia, they put out 100% more light that an a normal 10.0 t8, so a 12% arcadia t5-ho labeled a 30.0 and killing things left and right? They need to be labeled as something measurable by a meter.

Your lizard needs x uv per second(dont start snickering, its an example)
(grabs a meter)
Ok bulb A says it does x2 uv per second at 1 ft, lets meter at 18"
(meters measures x)
GTG

Can you imagine if it said
your lizard needs 10.0
(grabs a meter)
ok bulb A says it does 10.0
(meter measures 10%)
Ok we are good, um can some one turn on the flash light, i cant see with just this 1/2 watt uv light on....

 

[Venutus1]

Originally Posted by drcrossfire
Baby chameleons are susceptible to excessive UV exposure. Since most of what they sell are smaller chameleons, death can occur with 10.0 bulbs. Seems to me like they are just being cautious since many chameleon owners are not willing to do all of the research necessary to establish their own opinions on products.

What is your metric for determining "excessive"? Just curious...

We must look to Nature as our guide... and then apply a dose of science and common sense.
repeat: apply COMMON SENSE.

Wild Chams are regularly exposed, probably every day of life that it does not cloud over or rain, to UV levels of 200, 300 or above.

The question is: How long is their exposure time? How long the they choose to stay in the direct sun?

Picture where most types live:
In trees and brush.

Shafts of bright, strong tropical sunlight shine down and pierce the leaf canopy.

These animals freely move in and out of direct sunlight to soak up heat and/ or UV as they Choose.
Repeat: As THEY CHOOSE.

And remember that partial shade itself can have UV levels of 10 - 40 uw/cm2 just from refracted UV light from surrounding surfaces.

However, (and unfortunatly) in captivity, most set ups do not have all the variables offered to them for them to choose correctly.

That is where the common sense and science comes in.

We must create an evironment that gives them the properer parameters so that they can choose the shade or sun (UV) while not having to compromise heat and other factors.

A 10% or 12% bulb is not going to harm baby chameleons in theory....
IF they are set up in a Naturalistic environment with plenty of shade, no bully cage mates (that stake out the best positions of heat and UV for themselves forcing the others to sit all day in undesirable locations) and all the other factors that come into play when creating a proper cage set up.

However a 10 or 12% bulb over a baby cham in an bare open cage that is being FORCED to sit a a few inches away from it.
Perched on its one and only fake vine all day would suffer greatly.


The UV light, Heat (and humidity etc etc.) are ALL part of the big picture.

We all must strive to understand what our animal needs are and the choices they have in Nature.... and then translate them with COMMON SENSE to a excellent captive environment.

That is the key to it all.

Just something deep for keepers to think about.


Here are some pics of Arcadia T5's being tested and the UV out-put.
To help get an understanding of what UV readings they generate.

Hope it helps!

NOTE: Readings taken with New Bulbs in a ho t5 fixture with a good reflector.

Cheers!
Todd

 

[drcrossfire]

^what he said

 

[yeahbuddy661]

I know nobody has posted on this topic for a few days but just wanted to say I also think that most people are getting too carried away with 5.0 vs 10.0.

The 10.0 would not kill a cham even in a 36" enclosure ive used one for awhile with no ill effects. And to the question above about how often wild panthers are in direct sun, IT DOESNT MATTER. A Panther in the wild will get more uvb in shade and under brush than it will get with your 10.0 bulb. Its crazy, use your uvb meter outside in the shade you will be shocked.

 

[yeahbuddy661]

Also I forgot to mention. I think it came up somewhere in here that people were supplementing instead of uvb light. My brother refuses to use uvb lights and only uses calcium with d3 every other day and a household bulb for basking, the days he doesnt use d3 he uses calcium w/o d3. I myself am afraid to do this but his theory is why bother with uvb meters or uvb lights going bad when you can use a quality supplement.

Of course we both live in cali. and we both take them outside from time to time but he does not take his out that often and he has 2 2 year old panthers that are as healthy as mine.