What's with the parsonii?

[OOOst16]

So I see debates all the time on this forum about parsons, so I want someone with credible info to finish this once and for all.

Are there any parsonii breeders in the USA?

Are there any parsonii breeders in other countries?

If wild caught, are they illegal to have in the USA?

I have seen a female in flchams....which is a Florida based co. So how did they acquire the female?

Since most are WC, how are they acquired and taken out of Madagascar for sale?
Thanks.

 

[luevelvet]

Take a look around the site a find out why it's really not necessary to start another thread about this...

https://www.chameleonforums.com/index.php?page=conservation_mg

https://www.chameleonforums.com/search.php?searchid=990741


Happy reading!

Luis

 

[morpheon]

They are legal in USA, as far as i know.

There are "breeders" that have Parsoniis in the USA and in other countries. However, reproducing them is very hard and most breeders don't achieve it. This explain why the animals are so expensive (from 2000 to 3500$ each), and have to be imported. When there is any success in breeding them, most are being kept underground for the moment.

They are exported from Madagascar from various exporters. Some people there just hunt parsoniis, and some other try to reproduce them in farms. However, i don't know if farms at Madagascar are able to reproduce Parsonii, but i know it's working well for other species.

Wild Caught animals are imported here (USA-Canada-France-Germany) when some petstore are paying for them. This is probably how FLchams got them.

 

[Sang]

as much as it pains me to say this.

any parsons broght into the US after 1997 *i believe that is the date*

are most likely brought in in an illegal form of some sort.


typically animals are removed from the wild, taken to thailand were documents are falsified to make them appear to be from farms.

similar methods to smuggling are used to bring them in.



as for breeding them i have heard things and such...

hardest part is keeping the eggs, with a 2 year incubation time it is extremly difficult to take the time to breed, grow and hatch babies not only that but to keep them alive after hatching.

 

[adamkwas]

Wild Caught animals are imported here (USA-Canada-France-Germany) when some petstore are paying for them. This is probably how FLchams got them.

I cannot stand it when people proclaim such absurd things. Before you suggest that a VERY reputable chameleon distributer is promoting the wild capture of a species such as a Calumma parsonii, you should research. I'm not suggesting that every single parsonii brought into the states post 1996 is legal, because I'm sure that's not the case. There is tons of controversy surrounding the species - which is why most keepers of the species do not frequently post pictures, info, ect... of their Parsonn's.

I really don't have the knowledge as a 14 year, and novice keeper, to comment on this topic. Hopefully we'll here from other people with more knowledge!

 

[Cainschams]

I cannot stand it when people proclaim such absurd things.

Couldnt put that post in any better perspective!

 

[Eszzie]

as much as it pains me to say this.

any parsons broght into the US after 1997 *i believe that is the date*

are most likely brought in in an illegal form of some sort.


typically animals are removed from the wild, taken to thailand were documents are falsified to make them appear to be from farms.

similar methods to smuggling are used to bring them in.



as for breeding them i have heard things and such...

hardest part is keeping the eggs, with a 2 year incubation time it is extremly difficult to take the time to breed, grow and hatch babies not only that but to keep them alive after hatching.

Totally agree, same happens here in Europe. MOst people don't even have papers for it and just have contact in Madagascar from where they smuggle them. Some people that have papers from the time they could be imported know how to falsify papers to make it look like it's captive bred from that time. In Europe (and I guess USA is the same) a lot of people claim to have bred Calumma parsonii but hardly any people have registered anything, nor have photo's of matings, nor have photo's of eggs or hatching Parsonii''s. If someone would really have bred parsonii it should be glad to share this information with others right? Because it's so hard to breed them. Since 99% of all activities around parsonii's are illegal nobody comes out with real information. My message is to keep you hands off parsonii's! They are an endangered species already.
CITES should seriously do more about smuggling...but their scientific names date of 2-3 years ago, so I have no faith in CITES or any of the im-and export control anymore.. There will always be people that found some leak in the system to get what they want illegally in the end. The organizations that should do something don't take any action so I think it's up to us hobbyists to give the right example!

 

[laurie]

I cannot stand it when people proclaim such absurd things. Before you suggest that a VERY reputable chameleon distributer is promoting the wild capture of a species such as a Calumma parsonii, you should research. I'm not suggesting that every single parsonii brought into the states post 1996 is legal, because I'm sure that's not the case. There is tons of controversy surrounding the species - which is why most keepers of the species do not frequently post pictures, info, ect... of their Parsonn's.

I really don't have the knowledge as a 14 year, and novice keeper, to comment on this topic. Hopefully we'll here from other people with more knowledge!

FL Chams - Mike Monge, did NOT do anything illegal. The parsons he had for sale were from a breeder from Paris, France. The guy brought them to the Daytona show and any that did not sell at the show went to Mike for him to sell. Also Chris Anderson sold his long term parsons and I think Mike helped advertise for Chris.

I know we have has keepers here in the states breed and get eggs. I have never heard any have hatched. But maybe I just am not aware of it.

 

[morpheon]

I wrote: "this is probably how FLchams got them". There was a nuance here.

You also have to know that some chameleons are sold as captive breed, and are not CB. This is a too common phenomenon, and i think it is sad. However, even the best breeders and sellers can get wild caught (WC) animals without even knowing it. Some won't admit it, but it's more common than you'd think of. The black market of chameleon does exist, sadly, and Parsoniis are one of the best chameleons for that... There are falsified certificates all over the world for these species...

I also read that Parsoniis are illegal to import to the States from a few posters in here. However, i have no official proof of that. So if i was wrong on that matter, i am sorry.

 

[morpheon]

Just read what Laurie wrote. If she is right (and i believe her), i am glad to know that FLchams did everything in the good way. However i still stand on my main point, which is that the blackmarket exists, and even in France some false CB chameleons are imported/exported. How do i know it? Because i'm French and i read some French forums on a daily basis.

It is then possible for an honest breeder or seller to get Parsonii that are sold as CB, but are in fact WC.

 

[Carlton]

They are an endangered species already.

Please be careful in the terms you use...In terms of international trade C. parsonii is NOT an endangered species! There was a proposal/petition to change their status to CITES Appendix I some years ago, but their status has not changed that I know of. Chris A. Am I correct?

Another pretty good reason why parsonii keepers choose to be quiet about what they have is plain old theft. It does happen!

 

[Cainschams]

Morpheon wrote.

Indeed. They don't do well in regular enclosures, and prefer way bigger. Now, you have 2 choices: green house or free ranging. Green house are expensive, but worth it. Free ranging means difficulty to get high humidity, and i also read that they do better when they always have at least 2 meters in distance from anyone in the room (humans, dogs, cats), making it difficult to provide the proper installation!

But how gorgeous are they!!

They are legal in USA, as far as i know.

I also read that Parsoniis are illegal to import to the States from a few posters in here. However, i have no official proof of that. So if i was wrong on that matter, i am sorry.

Adam wrote

Hopefully we'll here from other people with more knowledge!

 

[Chris Anderson]

Unfortunately this thread is already an example of why people who aren't very sure they know what they are talking about should just shut their mouth. There are also many thread about this exact topic.

The trade in Calumma parsonii is extremely complicated. They were banned from export from Madagascar in 1994/5 and no legal specimens have left Madagascar since (even though there are known shipments that have been sent out). Because the ban did not distinguish between CB or WC specimens, even supposed CB or FR specimens can not legally leave Madagascar to any CITES party nation.

Because C. parsonii is very challenging to breed and there have been relatively few examples of bonafide captive breedings, there is much speculation about the origin of many of the C. parsonii available outside of Madagascar, particularly with the prevalence of young animals available. Many of these C. parsonii that are sold are believed to be from smuggled shipments of young animals, egg clutches or gravid females. It is believed that once these are smuggled in (typically to Asia and Europe), they are then represented as true, in-house CB animals. It is believed that these "breeders" then apply for CITES documents claiming these animals as CB from legal specimens they claim to still have from before ban. It is believed that these animals are then exported with these CITES documents and then sold in their final country of import.

From a legal standpoint, once the US FWS (or other CITES management authority) accepts/clears that shipment and their CITES documents, those animals have legally entered the country and are considered legal animal. Obviously animals of this origin technically violate CITES regulations but there is no way to prove it unless they are caught at importation/exportation from Madagascar (prior to being issued CITES documents as CB animals), since their is no way to trace animals that were legally imported with CITES documents before the export ban and make sure that the animals a "breeder" is claiming are those animals and the parents of the babies are in fact the original animals on the CITES.

The result is that any C. parsonii is typically subject to a lot of debate and uncertainty from the chameleon community. That being said, I know of multiple clutches of C. parsonii that have been born in the US and Europe in the last 8 years that are truly CB from bloodlines that do date back from before the ban. It is theoretically possible to still obtain C. parsonii from truly legal sources, although rare. Again, that being said, even specimens from questionable sources are technically legal once imported with CITES and their CITES accepted by FWS. Thus, even if a seller here in the US buys and sells C. parsonii from sources that may have questionable bloodlines, that US buyer/seller has not done anything illegal if FWS accepts the CITES documents on import and they did not know the animals were illegally obtained.

Chris

 

[Chris Anderson]

Please be careful in the terms you use...In terms of international trade C. parsonii is NOT an endangered species! There was a proposal/petition to change their status to CITES Appendix I some years ago, but their status has not changed that I know of. Chris A. Am I correct?

Another pretty good reason why parsonii keepers choose to be quiet about what they have is plain old theft. It does happen!

Very true and I understand that C. parsonii is actually much more widespread and with higher population numbers than many have believed. That isn't to say that their populations can withstand open trade, but simply that claiming they are endangered is a broad stroke that isn't really defensible with any facts.

Chris

 

[adamkwas]

FL Chams - Mike Monge, did NOT do anything illegal. The parsons he had for sale were from a breeder from Paris, France.

I know. That's what I was suggesting.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Going to add to what Chris said. It is my opinion that the chance that any parsonii currently for sale in the U.S or Europe has completely legal origins is nil. Perhaps a few were actually bred legally outside Madagascar, but the bloodlines no longer trace back to pre-quota, when it was legal.

The most common origins are females exported gravid from Madagascar to Indonesia and Thailand. After that, its kind of muddied, but still illegal. The one thing you can guarantee is that the most common pipeline is that with the largest profit margin. All others trying to do it "semi - legally", if not completely legally (with animals of original dubious origins), must compete against that, and it is not a profitable pursuit.

However, as noted, these animals do pick up legal paperwork long before coming to the U.S. That makes them very legal here.

If one is getting into parsonii in the pursuit of captive breeding for profit, then I would hope your spouse slaps you before you waste too much money. Even if you have that rare success, you cannot compete profit-wise against the illegal production of these animals.

That will not change.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Of note, and what is most important, at least to me. I believe that the population in Madagascar, in spite of the continued bit of poaching and smuggling in this species, is stable. In the early-mid 90's, when there were no export restrictions, and you could buy them for $50 apiece, the wild was being raped.

Not so now.

 

[Kent67]

....and for what it's worth, I thought I'd add a bit about my recent experiences with this species. I was given a freshly imported pair in April because the importer of a small group realized the mistake he had made and wanted them in good homes immediately. They had been imported exactly as described earlier, clearing USFW inspection with valid CBB export documents. Upon first inspection, albeit at a slight distance, all but one (was gaping and later died of pneumonia) seemed very healthy and I actually thought there was a good chance of them having at least been hatched in captivity. After I received them, closer inspection revealed a number of things typical of rough-handling by collectors/exporters such as missing toenails, chin and nose rubs, and scratches and scars. Several vet visits also revealed a bad infestation by a number of different internal parasites in both, as well as infected bone, that the doctor wants to amputate, from the missing nails in multiple feet.

As has been implied, I recognize that Parson's populations in the wild could sustain an annual, legally controlled harvest. Or, a Malagasy-owned and employing farm that could get CITES approval to export verifiable captive-bred specimens (similar to what has been done in other nations) would be great. It is likely that the same numbers of animals would come out of Madagascar as today, however, for the animals' sake they could be directly exported to final destinations rather than bounced all over the planet. The high price tags would likely remain but taking away the "illegality" might just result in animals that are better taken care of in route that have a higher chance of surviving captivity long-term.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Good post Ken ! At these farm-hatch operations in Indonesia and Thailand, the animals pick up parasites similar to what they would in the wilds of Madagascar. Happens with the panther chameleons that come out of there as well, to include the filarial worms that are not transmitted here in the U.S., as we have not the proper mosquito species to do it.

Good luck with all ..... I had a dozen parsonii years ago. Won't touch them again.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Rhino my male parsons came in almost perfect. Perfect in every sense that he had good optimum health and hydration, no scratches and no parasites. His only flaw is he has mark on his back that looked he had been house in a cage with a larger parsons that bit his back when he was young. Other than that he looked and seems like a farm CB Parsons.

As for the circumstances with exporting chameleons now I think it is important that small numbers of Farm Raised or wild caught animals are exported. With out exported chameleons most people would not know or have a clue about conservation issues in Madagascar and without that attention much more of Madagascar's forest would have been logged for exotic wood and the rest would have been turned into coal. With keepers that give a dam with other fans of Madagascar forest conservation, conservation of Madagascar forest will continue and eventually we may be able to justify and completely approve the exports of species like Parsons and new quotas from CITES may be made. Working with these species is a privileged of accomplished conservation goals we are not heir yet however progress since the ban has been made. Until the recent political problems Madagascar with the cooperation from conservation groups world wide had an aggressive wild lands conservation program and was beginning to be considered a conservation success story and achieved conservation goal were in sight. If progress continues we may see accomplished goals be achieved. As stated earlier during the early 1990's the Parsons main enemy was being over collected in extremely large numbers that is no longer happening today. While today Madagascar's main problem is to continue conserve as much pristine habitat as possible and reforest deforested areas to allow species like Parsons chameleons to recolonize reforested habitats. Lastly is to legitimize Reptile Farm operation in Madagascar to the point where the rest of the world can approve of, such as, legitimately producing documented captive breed chameleons for all species the farm operations produce and clean up export practices. Which may take a while however I think it can be done. I think high prices for all Madagascar chameleons is important that way people will be reluctant to buy a high price wild caught animal.