What's in supplements?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by kinyonga, Jun 17, 2017.

  1. kinyonga

    kinyonga Chameleon Enthusiast

  2. Andee

    Andee Chameleon Enthusiast

    I am honestly going to stop recommmending Stick Tongues then... wow.... that is really bad... o_O Glad I have the good stuff
     
  3. leedragon

    leedragon Avid Member

    wait why is it bad? oO
     
  4. Andee

    Andee Chameleon Enthusiast

    If you read Sticky tongues in the link (I am talking about the Miner All O? version) it has a bunch of unnecessary heavy metals in it from the looks of it. Even if it is necessary to have them (which I can't imagine Uranium and Titanium etc, being useful for the body because I haven't found anything that says those metals are naturally found in the body, might be wrong though) I don't think they should be in a supplement. If you are feeding your insects any sort of veggies that grow in a soil and it is found naturally in growing things, honestly your insects will get enough of it to give it your reptiles in needed amounts. The sad thing is, a lot of minerals and vitamins we don't need a lot of. Stuff like D, calcium, and A and a couple other necessary vitamins and minerals are the only ones you need to worry about higher marks in the system all the time.
     
  5. leedragon

    leedragon Avid Member

    I Think you are lacking perspective in this one. the amounth of those could be in the picograms. or just things that are found in the ingredient. plants and other things we eat and they eat, are most likely to have those things. and the amounts are low enough to not be a danger. they probably have some use in their body aswell. I belive the other brands may have those things as well but because the amounts in all of them are so low or because or other loop holes. As just writing the ingrediants used and not what compose those ingredients ( like when you write honey as the ingrediant and not the chemical compotiotion of honey). And that sticky farm tongue is the only one to botter to write those things out. I could be wrong due. but I have not hear any bad results at all from sticky farm tongues.
     
  6. Andee

    Andee Chameleon Enthusiast

    we have no yet heard bad results specifically related to a single supplement that we know of no. But honestly how many people actually get necropsies of chameleons that die for unknown reasons? And then how many chameleons die for unknown reasons? I know a lot do...

    I play it safe with my chams. Because I know it's always too easy to hurt them. If you put it on the label there is enough of it that it's a worry, especially where it's placed on the ingredient label. It's placed high up, which means it's likely to have more of it. And supplements are a raw form of the things they label on them... so why do we give it them?

    I use repashy for most things and gutload with anything else, liquid calcium for calcium, liquid vitamin A drops for Ryker's vitamin A, and don't dose with D3 at all because he only gets UVB naturally. He get's over 2 hours+ averagely a day of natural uvb.

    The real question is, how much do we know about what does harm to the chams we keep? Really good vet's don't even know half of the things yet..
     
  7. leedragon

    leedragon Avid Member

    but what about all of those who use sticky farm tongues and their cham hasn´t died off? I would worry more about parasites than this brand. I kinda get your worriness. I don´t Think due sticky farm tongue is anything to be worry about. btw is 2 hours of natural sun light enough? it is 1/3 of the uv b time the get with a uvb light
     
  8. Andee

    Andee Chameleon Enthusiast

    This post talks about dangerous heavy metals and the affects it has on a body's system (though it talks about humans it won't affect a reptile much differently except that maybe in smaller amounts it would be more of an issue). The thing with heavy metals is they aren't easily excreted. Almost all of these metals are talked about in the trace elements in the sticky tongue, but I think if I remember correctly sticky tongue recommends using it almost every day? (not sure though) Heavy metals easily become toxic.

    https://www.drlam.com/blog/in-depth-guide-to-heavy-metal-poisoning-and-detoxification-part-1/26601/
     
  9. Andee

    Andee Chameleon Enthusiast

    Yes but natural sunlight produces more healthy UVB, artificial lights are on all the time because they produce more bad waves than good uvb waves and also produce less uvb waves. Reptiles do not naturally bask 12 hours a day, there are 3 hours of peak uvb time, which is why artificial uvb is so detrimental to them if you don't get the absolute best and you need so much of it. My cham will get easily 2 hours+ on average a day, but he usually gets over it, which is 10am-4pm, but he only basks for 3 hours at most and then will go into the complete shade provided to him for the rest of the day on his own.
     
  10. leedragon

    leedragon Avid Member

    I gonna check it out. yes but you have to keep in mind what amounts are in the there. reptiles aswell will be consuming as a bi Product metals and such. I kind not pin Point what they use those for but I pretty sure their body as well as our need them.
     
  11. leedragon

    leedragon Avid Member

    good Point. that actually makes sense. althought they may not be basking 12 hours a day, they probably are in contanct with sun light many more hours. And even thought not basking then they are still getting uv b more than the hours they would bask.
     
  12. Andee

    Andee Chameleon Enthusiast

    Idk, usually most chams have to go to the top canopies or edges of trees to get any good uvb. Forests are extremely thick once you are out of the top levels of the canopies. Unless you are talking about desert species and plains species etc.
     
  13. leedragon

    leedragon Avid Member

    yeah depends on the species. light will go through due. but Panthers and oustaleties and such that hang on cosal areas will probaly still get a good amount of uv light.
     
  14. Andee

    Andee Chameleon Enthusiast

    So here is a copy paste directly about chams and how little exposure they need to direct UVB all the time (this is natural uvb)

    Rainforest species such as some types of chameleon naturally avoid any such high exposure. They need UVB, but at much lower levels. Their more sensitive skins manufacture all the vitamin D3 which they need from brief periods of basking early and late in the day, and the diffused and reflected ultraviolet light permeating the rainforest shade. All species of chameleon have different requirements, but authors vary, too, in their recommendations. The one scientific study we are aware of addresses egg hatchability in Panther Chameleons (Furcifer pardalis) and the authors suggest that a low level of UVB (a gradient between 15-33uW/cm² as measured with a Solarmeter 6.2) supplied for 12 hours a day is optimal. High levels are seen to be harmful.14,19 Our experiences are similar to these findings; one of the current authors maintains gradients of up to 30uW/cm² in all his chameleon vivaria.

    http://www.uvguide.co.uk/whatreptilesneed.htm

    (I can get several more articles, most stating around the same thing only a couple argue a difference and most of those are relatively old)

    You should read this as well as it explains the dangers of artificial UVB and what has happened to Ryker fairly well.
    http://www.uvguide.co.uk/uvinviv.htm
     
  15. Andee

    Andee Chameleon Enthusiast

    I can't use artificial UVB light, he immediately gets worse with his eye sight no matter how much shading I provide, how much screening in between and how much distance I provide or all combined. He's too sensitive to artificial lighting. The only reason he is still alive is because I wasn't afraid to force feed (and knew how to do it safely) and wasn't afraid to take away his artificial uvb completely and only use the sun.
     
  16. leedragon

    leedragon Avid Member

    thats cool
     
  17. leedragon

    leedragon Avid Member

    couldn´t be that there is a manufacturing problem with your lights?
     
  18. Andee

    Andee Chameleon Enthusiast

    No because I used tons of different lights. And multiple people have used the ones I used in the end. I can send you to the thread I made about the issues I had with him. It started when I used a 30 watt halogen that everyone recommended, I will never use halogens ever again. But he started to show improvements once I removed the halogen he was once again hunting on his own etc. But then uvb started affecting him, it was an older one too 4 months, I switched it out, used a different brand... he just can't use uvb lights at all. He can't use high power basking lights either. His eyes have been damaged from things that supposedly shouldn't have been an issue. And I have noticed patterns with people, with similar issues. It just comes to a point to where I ask, how much do we actually know about them? It's why I won't buy chams anymore (I will support friends on the forums if they are desperately looking for a home for a baby and need shipping and a small rehoming fee) or I get rescues from idiots surrounding me in the area I live in... god knows there are enough sadly .____. .... But it was also around that time I decided I will never breed chameleons... or reptiles likely in general. We don't know enough about them as a general genus to be able to keep them safely in captivity, even if they are cbb. I will never add to that. I don't look down on people who do. But it's just a personal opinion of mine... The thing is, Ryker wasn't a rescue, I bought him from an amazing breeder, and I researched for 8+ months before hand, and also researched afterward. I followed advice on the forum when worried, I took him to the vet without a seconds notice if I was nervous about something. He had everything he needed, he had better feeders (gutloaded and variety) than most people offer... and yet this still happened....
     
    leedragon likes this.
  19. leedragon

    leedragon Avid Member

    if you are interesting in experimenting. give the chameleon to someone you know knows about chamaleons and see if he had the same problems. if so the it maybe something worng with the chameleon. if not then maybe some circumstances that maybe around you are affecting the chameleon in the wrong way.
    I do get what you mean. I myself have taken a really long pause from chameleons. until I can garantee I can give them Everything they need. and Before that I have as bucket list to see them in the wild.
     
  20. Andee

    Andee Chameleon Enthusiast

    He's showing improvements since I have reduced all lighting except a small basking light indoors and he spends all day outside etc. He can already see where he's walking, opens his eyes for almost all day, he tracks me better, he just can't track prey movements at all. I don't think I would trust someone else with them because no one knows what I have done for him to show improvements and also very few people are willing to take risks like I did to see any possible fixes. Plus no one is around me (there are a few people several hours a way) who I would consider knowledgeable. Even my vet didn't know what to do with him and most of the advice I got here unless it was in message form (since the general populace often freaks out if you mention something different or question normality). I am not someone who just follows rules because it works for the majority of said animals. I set up chams when they first arrive with me like a general species of them should and then the cage or whatever is tweaked to each individual. Each animal is an individual in my house. Even my five hamsters, (just recently lost one at the age of 2+ years) have a homemade complete dry diet (that has no commercial food in it which is weirdly taboo in the hamster world, that I researched for 6 months) with 40+ ingredients, and it is tweaked to each individual and often on a monthly basis is changed for every individual. No animal is the same... it's when we start thinking they are that we start losing the battle for learning new things. Which is why science is so... stagnant in my opinion.
     
    Kristen Wilkins likes this.

Share This Page



Loading...