What is the cost of breeding veileds?

[jojothefirst]

I have seen alot of people saying that its not worth breeding due to the costs of things like food, and electricity.

People have said they spend $50 on each baby cham!

Its just that seems alot and im wondering if food for them is more exspencive over there in the USA and Canada than it is in the uk?

For example, I done a small amout of research and I can buy 2000 micro crickets for less than £13 (approx $20) which should last 39 babys a month I believe (correct me if im wrong).

So if I kept them for 2 months thats £26 and I have been told by a local pet shop they would buy each for £20 (hoping to sell them myself for abit more) so for 39 babys thats £780.

Have I got it wrong, missed something or is it cheaper over here?

 

[sandrachameleon]

Are you only going to feed them micro crickets? What about other feeders? What about the cost to feed/gutload the feeders properly? What about the separate enclosures? Supplements? UVB lighting?

I answered your question more fully the first time you asked it: https://www.chameleonforums.com/why-cant-my-chameleon-25882/#post234173

more info re breeding: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/63-links-regarding-breeding.html

 

[DJnSoCal]

How much is your time worth? Is it more economical for you to go to work or to raise baby chameleons? Besides food costs, did you figure in everything else you will need? Just off the top of my head I think about various cages (and space), lighting, watering/misting/dripping systems, variety of foods, supplements, VET visits, the stock in buying the parents, and you never know how many eggs will ultimately make it. Of course, if it is a hobby, like it is for me, then it's all good and this gets your mind off of work!

I have an idea: Try it out, keep very good records, and let us know how much it costs for you. I'm curious.

 

[Fidel]

For example, I done a small amout of research and I can buy 2000 micro crickets for less than £13 (approx $8) which should last 39 babys a month I believe (correct me if im wrong).

First of all, 2000 crickets will last 39 hungry baby veilds a week and a half tops. And Second, they won't be "micro" crickets for a month anyway.

 

[Julirs]

Here ya go!

https://www.chameleonforums.com/cost-raising-69-baby-18467/

I beleive 2000 crickets often lasted less than a week! Good Luck!

 

[chequepoint]

When I said that number, it was pretty ballpark. If you factor in time at all, then its well over that figure even at minimum wage.

Ideally your babies should be getting crickets, fruit flies, and as they get bigger small silkies, roach nymphs, etc. You should also raise them up to at least 3 months if you're ethical IMO unless selling to a very experienced person. I'd say that it should be 4 - 5 months before subjecting them to the torture of a pet store. You should also house them in as small of groups as possible to prevent injury.. thats not cheap.

My larger point in that thread was that someone who was struggling to keep two animals alive shouldn't be focused on a breeding program.
I don't know that the reptile hobby can continue support the rate of breeding that seems to go on..

Not saying that I won't breed, or even that I don't... But rather its something that shouldn't be taken into lightly.. "I'll put a male and a female together, pop out some babies, feed them crickets, and off them to my local pet store ASAP" isn't exactly a comprehensive business plan.

 

[Julirs]

Here ya go!

https://www.chameleonforums.com/cost-raising-69-baby-18467/

I beleive 2000 crickets often lasted less than a week! Good Luck!

Just to add one more thing-I WILL NEVER EVER SELL TO A PETSTORE! The piece of mind is worth it.

 

[jojothefirst]

Are you only going to feed them micro crickets? What about other feeders? What about the cost to feed/gutload the feeders properly? What about the separate enclosures? Supplements? UVB lighting?

I answered your question more fully the first time you asked it: https://www.chameleonforums.com/why-cant-my-chameleon-25882/#post234173

more info re breeding: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/63-links-regarding-breeding.html

My plan is to feed them what ever it takes to make sure they are health, I just used the crickets as a example to compare there cost from The USA to there costs in the UK.
You said in the other post that they cost bettween $5 and $10 for 100 pin head/micro crickets and that would last 1 cham a week. so if I take the middle number of $7.50, in 10 weeks it would be 1000 crickets at $75 per cham.
In the Uk I can get 500 micro crickets at a time for £3.50 (less if I buy in bulk) so would cost me £7 per cham in theory. £273 for 39 babys.
So it does cost alot more for crickets in the USA if those stats are correct.


I already have the parents, there set up and everything that goes with it which I dont count in the cost as I didnt buy them to breed, I bought them as pets in the hope they will breed.
I need another cage and exspect to pay £80ish for a good 1.
I already have spare fake plants and light fittings just need the bulbs which I belive I can get for £20.
I pay the same amount for my electric no matter how much I use so dont count that.

Thats £373 so far so even if I set aside £500 for the whole project, that would still leave £280 profit if I sold all of them to my local pet shop and more if I ask more pet shops (only ask 1 so far)or if I can sell some myself!

Have I missed anything?

 

[Julirs]

Baby Veileds eat pin heads for about a week and then they are eating 1/4" and quickly 1/2" at the rate of 10-20 per day each! All costs aside-it is a time consuming venture with lots of hidden costs. Of course gas went to $4.00 a gallon(driving large gas-hogging SUV) when I needed to drive home from work every day to either feed/water babies or pack them to ship them out.

 

[jojothefirst]

When I said that number, it was pretty ballpark. If you factor in time at all, then its well over that figure even at minimum wage.

Ideally your babies should be getting crickets, fruit flies, and as they get bigger small silkies, roach nymphs, etc. You should also raise them up to at least 3 months if you're ethical IMO unless selling to a very experienced person. I'd say that it should be 4 - 5 months before subjecting them to the torture of a pet store. You should also house them in as small of groups as possible to prevent injury.. thats not cheap.

My larger point in that thread was that someone who was struggling to keep two animals alive shouldn't be focused on a breeding program.
I don't know that the reptile hobby can continue support the rate of breeding that seems to go on..

Not saying that I won't breed, or even that I don't... But rather its something that shouldn't be taken into lightly.. "I'll put a male and a female together, pop out some babies, feed them crickets, and off them to my local pet store ASAP" isn't exactly a comprehensive business plan.

I appreciate that, but i am just trying to get an idea of what I have let my self in for. My original thoughts and research suggested that there was some money to be made out of doing it but the amount of people outside of the UK saying it’s not possible gave me doubts.
It would seem that the cost of food in the USA is a lot more than here so there might be a profit in it for me.

So I am not taking this lightly, this isnt a "business plan" I am doing it as I will enjoy it even though I know it will take a lot of my time up and if there is a profit to be made then all the better.

I am posting on here to experienced chameleon breeders/owners long before the babies are due to get as much info as I can which on its own suggests I am not taking this lightly.

Just to add one more thing-I WILL NEVER EVER SELL TO A PETSTORE! The piece of mind is worth it.

Both of you have made this comment, are the pet shops over there really that bad?

 

[Chamero]

13 pounds is not $8...its more like $20

 

[jojothefirst]

13 pounds is not $8...its more like $20

true, my mistake, was thinking the wrong way round ($13 would be about £8), just corrected it, thanks.

 

[Chamero]

Yea I think the best way to cut down costs would be to breed all your own food...and even then..I dont think youd turn a profit until the second or third batch..

 

[Sang]

Most petstores in the states wouldn't be in the pet trade industry are in it for profit, they want to take bulk animals and turn and and sell them as fast as possible without spending to much money back on the animal.

i talk often with pets inc reptile manager, he tells me the problem with chameleons and taking babies off people is the amount of food they have to put in, in the time it takes to sell them, they rarely make any profit and sometimes loose out on money.


also, they don't always follow through with proper care. many will use improper bulbs, enclosures and poorly supplimented food.

Pets inc, i had to correct their lighting issue, and humidity issues for there montane species, luckly tom is willing to listen to me, unlike most other stores.

 

[jojothefirst]

Yea I think the best way to cut down costs would be to breed all your own food...and even then..I dont think youd turn a profit until the second or third batch..

That is something I am thinking of doing. But also thinking that the food in the uk seems to be a huge amount cheaper and wouldnt save me much in comparision to what it would save people outside of the UK.

I still belive that in the UK I can make a profit but if i dont then as long as it doesnt bankrupt me then I will enjoy it.

Looking at julirs thread
https://www.chameleonforums.com/cost-raising-69-baby-18467/
a total of $1044.17 was spent and nearly $900 was on food and made a profit.

So if food in the UK is alot less then if she done the same project in the UK then there would have been alot more profit. In theory.

 

[chequepoint]

Lets be honest for a minute, its a business. No matter what, you're doing this to try to make money, if you weren't.. then you wouldn't risk your females health and take years off of her life.

 

[jojothefirst]

Most petstores in the states wouldn't be in the pet trade industry are in it for profit, they want to take bulk animals and turn and and sell them as fast as possible without spending to much money back on the animal.

i talk often with pets inc reptile manager, he tells me the problem with chameleons and taking babies off people is the amount of food they have to put in, in the time it takes to sell them, they rarely make any profit and sometimes loose out on money.


also, they don't always follow through with proper care. many will use improper bulbs, enclosures and poorly supplimented food.

Pets inc, i had to correct their lighting issue, and humidity issues for there montane species, luckly tom is willing to listen to me, unlike most other stores.

That’s very wrong!
Are these pet stores selling just reptiles or are they selling all sorts of animals?
Generally speaking, in the UK you have pet shops that sell rodents, birds and things like that but no reptiles....
Then you have shops that sell nothing but reptiles...there is 1 shop about 2miles from me who has been selling nothing but reptiles for 10+ years so is a expert on there care and I have been to him with my problems.

 

[Chamero]

From an economical point of view... With the first batch..

your input costs would be huge...cages for both adults and babies...The cost of the adult breeders themselves...and then the plants and lights...oh and supplements too...and paper towels.. and gutload...

As for fixed costs (say monthly) You would have food of course, plus electrical...plus gutload and and paper towels..(g-load a towels would of course be less monthly)

Then finally, the debatable part, opportunity cost..(time)..what other possible income are you giving up to do this...

So from here, you could actually figure out some numbers..and even graph it if you wanted.... finding all sorts of other figures.. break-even point ect

Since im not in school right now im not even gonna try..but have fun..

 

[Chamero]

You also have to remember that England is a much different place from capitalist America (all about $$$)... Europeans look at animals in a way different light...just look at how dogs are treated in both countries... In America, owners get away with much more bad treatment to there dogs...where in England its even illegal to leash up your dog in the back yard if your not home... just a thought

 

[Sang]

we do have specialty stores here in the states,

Reptile and birds stores are rare nowadays, i know of like 5-6 each.

pets inc is your mom and pop style pet store, small rodents, they don't keep puppies/cats anymore. reptiles and fish, no birds.

but for instance this place out here, predator reptile, i went into his facilities to take a look at his store, i saw how he was keeping his jacksosn, 10-15 in one 30"x 30" x 18" cage, all extremly dehydrated/ill and several on deaths door. they were bought in bulk for very cheap, he sold a majority of them, and made his money back and then some. the rest he just didn't care about/ have time to triage them back to health.

otherwise we have corporate pet stores, petco/petsmart.

its really hard finding good stores within the united states.

the owner of pets inc, while in the business for prophet, his managers and staff are some of the best people i have met in any petstore, and always willing to go that extra mile in correcting any errors in their husbandry. sick animals are treated quickly, cages are cleaned daily if not more, all food is freash and changed out. in the 23 years i have been going there , i can't say i have a single thing bad to say about pets inc, except that they are a little bit lacking in knowledge about chameleons.