What is FAIR to expect from a breeder?

[chamlover]

I've been pondering this question for the last few weeks. Listening to other forum members talking about how they bought chams from reputable breeders and end up with chams that have parasites. I've also had that problem recently. But i can't figure out whether it is fair to expect to get a cham from ANYONE and EXPECT it to be parasite-free. We all know and expect to have problems if it is w/c but just because it is c/b should we expect it to have no bugs? I'd like to hear your opinions on this issue.

Debby

 

[FOREVER ENDEAVOR]

it seems that this topic is somewhat taboo in the chameleon community..ive talked with some breeders that say parasites arent a problem and others dread them...id like to hear an "experts" opinion on this topic..

 

[Colin]

Are you serious about this? First thing I do when I get a new animal is send in a shitsample to a good laboratory. If there are parasites found you of cause can (and should!!) contact the breeder. If he is a serious guy he will help you and depending on how bad the health of the animal is,he might take it back(he has a reputation to loose,keep that in mind). If you wait longer than one week with checking ,things are of cause different. In this time your animal could catch every parasite possible,or get weak/ill through bad holding conditions. In this case, I as a breeder would not feel responsible for that too... To shorten this down. Yes,it is fair to expect to get a parasite free animal from a good breeder,especially when you pay good money! A good breeder sells healthy animals,not just the nicest,most colourfull or rarest animals. You should discuss this topic right away with the breeder and tell him that you are going to check the chameleons health directly. His reaction will show you if he is a trustable person... If you buy a animal in a rotten pet store because it is a few bucks cheaper its your own fault of cause.. just my two cents

 

[Chuck G]

As a breeder this is one reason I don't sell wild caught animals to the public.
Certainly any chameleon,captive bred or otherwise can pick up parasites but buying captive bred only cuts down on this immensly.As the customer,it is your responsibility to quarantine the chameleon for a few weeks from the rest of your collection and get a fecal to a vet right away.If parasites or any other problems are found, the breeder should take care of it.You can't expect the breeder to be responsible if you wait a month until you take a sample to the vet.We have no idea under what conditions they are kept once they leave our hands.I certainly do anything within my power to help a customer and many times they were someone else's customer!

 

[Klemins]

I think you should expect a breeder to fully represent an animal. If the breeder/seller says it's a wild caught animal, and hasn't been treated (or fully treated), then you know what you're getting into, and it's the buyer's responsibility to take care of the issues. If, however, the breeder claims it's a CB animal with no parasites or issues and you find out the opposite, obviously the seller is not someone who is selling animals for what they really are. An honest breeder who is willing to answer all your questions and help you out is what I expect. If I email someone and they never reply, or act shady or impatient, I'll pass on.

I've been screwed in the past, once for an Ambanja sold to me as CB, completely healthy. Turns out he was most likely wild caught, and had a heavy case of worms. Keep in mind, I was 11, had done a ton of research, and the breeder had no problem screwing over a kid (he knew it was my gift) for money.
At a reptile show once, someone tried to sell me an adult Nosy Be Panther, with dark bruises all over its body. When I asked him what they were, his girlfriend was telling him, and he would recite to me, that they were markings from an importer to say what morph he was. They were obviously injuries so I laughed and left. This is more extreme, but keep away from these types, and expect someone to fully represent and stand behind their animals, and be there for advice when you need it.

 

[mattjillson]

IMO if you are buying a WC animal you should go into the transaction EXPECTING to have to deal with parasites and acclimation. Unless the animal is sold to you as an established WC that has been treated and has been shown clean via fecal samples that where provided to you prior to purchase or shipping, you really don't have much of a leg to stand on. Again, this is just my opinion. One or two cycles of whatever isn't always capable of totally cleaning an animal totally out. It's a long process to fully acclimate a WC. A couple of months IMO isn't nearly long enough to say the animal is a LTC and parasite free. Consider dealing with parasites a cost of doing business with WCs.

 

[Chamero]

So its seems that its kinda agreed that its the customers job to inquire about parasites.

But...

In the event that parasites are present, and the specimen is non-WC, I believe its the breeders job to correct the problem. How?
With a traded specimen for sure .... but also with some sort of refund for the first vet check, OR in providing the second vet check.
There is no reason why the unsuspected buyer should be stuck with two vet bills.

As for the breeders perspective, is it for one, the breeders duty to pay for all his animals to get checked (a huge expense) or is it only his duty to disclose that they have or havnt been checked.

This is where I see the complication. From a beginners point of view...what are parasites? (simple version) and from an experienced keepers view (does he have parasites) What about hte ones who are buying for the first time?

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

IMO if you are buying a WC animal you should go into the transaction EXPECTING to have to deal with parasites and acclimation. Unless the animal is sold to you as an established WC that has been treated and has been shown clean via fecal samples that where provided to you prior to purchase or shipping, you really don't have much of a leg to stand on. Again, this is just my opinion. One or two cycles of whatever isn't always capable of totally cleaning an animal totally out. It's a long process to fully acclimate a WC. A couple of months IMO isn't nearly long enough to say the animal is a LTC and parasite free. Consider dealing with parasites a cost of doing business with WCs.

HERE HERE -I SECOND THAT!
Anyone selling WC isn't a "breeder" they're a reseller.
yes It's a "small distinction" in some peoples eyes
But it really isn't small. it's a huge one.

The chameleon business (imho) was founded upon disposable animals.
There's no way anyone taking the time and trouble actually breeding captive animals
can compete against someone importing animals stolen from the wild.

The old myth of can't touch, can't handle, short livespans are all from the days
when all the animals you see were climbing wild in a tree a few weeks earlier.
Most of the time I believe that many of those pet stores *want* your animal to die
just so that you'll buy another after getting all the expensive goodies they're telling you you'll need
(water falls, heat lamps, special moss, ointments etc)

A breeders responsibility is to stand behind what they sell
they should be able to either pay for or perform their own fecal checks and treat their own animals.
Generally I've dealt with some trades that I'm not all so happy with
at least 1 "captive bred animal" was HIGHLY suspicious once I saw him.
Breeders should keep their house clean, bug free with good animals
if they're not doing that then they should not be in the business.

IF the buyer has the animal for a week or more then it's the buyers responsibility
(for the reasons mentioned by others)
Dr. Jenkins gives free vet visits for all animals after the shows in san diego.
just bring your receipt and they'll perform a check for cheap.

 

[joefarah]

All of our chameleons are carrying parasites and so are all of us. In fact, most of our parasites are carrying parasites.

Expect them to be present when you purchase any herp, CB or WC.
To expect otherwise is to set yourself up for frustration time and time again...

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

All of our chameleons are carrying parasites and so are all of us. In fact, most of our parasites are carrying parasites.

Expect them to be present when you purchase any herp, CB or WC.
To expect otherwise is to set yourself up for frustration time and time again...

There are parasites and then there are PARASITES.
some little bacteria or "friendly" bug doesn't fall into my definition
but if you want to split hairs... you're perfectly right.

but for talking purposes, some kind of ugly worm making it's way through the animals body
causing damage and draining the animals health is what I'm on the lookout for.

 

[joefarah]

There are parasites and then there are PARASITES.
some little bacteria or "friendly" bug doesn't fall into my definition
but if you want to split hairs... you're perfectly right.

but for talking purposes, some kind of ugly worm making it's way through the animals body
causing damage and draining the animals health is what I'm on the lookout for.

You're absolutely right. There should be a distinction there. So, I guess then the buyer should ask specifically about a few nasty types they are concerned with... the type that pose a health risk and require costly medical treatment.

 

[Chamero]

I find myself torn between the buyer and the seller. What about all the new herpers out there just getting into herps. How are they gonna know about all these parasites, they are probably already overwhelmed with all the info on chams alone. I mean when I did my research for chams, I know I didnt even get into parasites.
Parasites seem like an "after the fact" thing and I think there should be more responsibility on the breeder/seller for distributing healthy animals. I mean, dont most parasitic problems arise form husbandry/food anyway?

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

Parasites seem like an "after the fact" thing and I think there should be more responsibility on the breeder/seller for distributing healthy animals. I mean, dont most parasitic problems arise form husbandry/food anyway?

If the buyers started insisting that all their WC resold animals
as well as CB subadults we're all parasite free in writing at the time of sale.
things would be different.

resellers are not taking care of parasites to maintain their price points
they can get away with this because the market doesn't ask or insist that they take care of it.
thats the bottom line.

I agree anyone selling anything should stand behind what they sell
but that isn't the kind of business model a reseller is.
they move product in bulk for cheap... and that attracts people.
They stand behind species ID and it getting to you alive.
you don't get a bug free certificate, genetics background or even a above average animal.
in short you get what you pay for.

if you want to sleep well at night and be proud of your knock out pet
then pay the money and get a young animal from a breeder you can trust.

Any subadult from anything but a trusted breeder that I know.
I assumed to be a possible WC & imported animal.
especially if it comes to me with an attitude.
it's just the way it is.

 

[FOREVER ENDEAVOR]

^ thats the truth....

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy All,

A buyer's concerns about parasites offers an opportunity for a seller to create a distinct market advantage by offering chameleons that have been evaluated for parasites. An investment of $300-$400 in equipment would allow the seller to do their own parasite checks and they could state that as such. Another option is for the seller to work with a Vet and have that extra level of "certification". This could be very burdensome for the seller who has large numbers of babies but it still offers a level of distinction from other sellers and may allow a premium to be charged since it offers the buyer a certain level of assurance of health.

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

agreed 100% dave 100% agreed.
I'm not asleep at the wheel regarding this at all.

Sorry I didn't get the chance to spend more time with you
I was just trying to stay ahead of the flow that day

 

[THECHAMMAN]

i have right now the same prob as klemins. the breeder sold me a male veiled cham that they say is CB but i know that it is WC because he hasnt acclamated well and ive had him for over a month. he is doing well with no parasites but i still think that it is horrible for someone to lie like that to a person.

 

[TylerStewart]

i have right now the same prob as klemins. the breeder sold me a male veiled cham that they say is CB but i know that it is WC because he hasnt acclamated well and ive had him for over a month. he is doing well with no parasites but i still think that it is horrible for someone to lie like that to a person.

I wouldn't automatically assume that a veiled chameleon is WC because it won't settle in... The last WC veileds I had sold for more than CB veileds sell for (where panthers are normally cheaper as WC's), so you probably weren't lied to. Veileds are so common as captive-bred, if you were told it was CB, it probably is CB. It could just be nervous in a new environment, maybe something in the setup is not quite right. Maybe just a nervous animal.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Buyer Beware!

In my opinion it all comes down to communication.
If you purchase a WC animal and the breeder has communicated that the animal has not been treated (either outright or after an inquiry) then that's what you get, parasites and all.
If a buyer is going to expect fecals done on all animals they buy and treatment for any found parasites by the breeder/importer ... then the buyer must expect the cost of the animal to be higher. In other words, you're going to pay for it in the end anyway.
It is highly unethical to lie about an animal you are selling ... but I don't know what a buyer can do about that. Liars are liars and after learning who they are, the best we can do is not do business with them anymore.
It is the buyers obligation to ask about the welfare of the animal and if any parasite testing or treatment has been performed.
In my opinion if the seller is honest about it (either way), his or her obligation has been met.
My answer to the question is:
It is fair to expect a breeder to tell the truth.

-Brad

 

[Kent67]

Sounds like a good idea for a business model For those who don't know, Sticky Tongue Farms didn't start as a supplement manufacturer. Although I don't remember specifically, I believe they used to guarantee their animals were PARASITE free, even wild caughts. They took the risk of keeping fresh imports long enough to do 2-3 rounds of panacur and flagyl while taking up cage space and then passed the extra cost along to the customer. As a buyer of many wc species of chameleons back in the day, I always liked the idea of someone weeding out the really healthy ones and deparasitizing them for me in advance. Just a thought....