I was wondering if anyone knows were the Xanth jacksons that are still for sale are coming from? With Tanzania closed shoud they not be hard to find now? Were a lot imported before the exporting stopped, or are they coming from somwere else? I am wondering as well since I want a male if I should get one before there gone or if more imports are still coming in?
Were are the Xanths coming from?
- Thread starter northcham
- Start date
chameleonkev
New Member
Private breeders and Hawaii probly
xanthoman
Avid Member
xanth origin???????????????????????????
thats a very good question and one that i have asked many times.
kenya is closed to export. and as far as i know tz is closed except for f1 farm raised animals, but its hard to keep track since they seem to change their official policy frequently.
hawaii dept of natural resources clearly states that "there is no provision for commercial export" and the hdnr 4 cham rule clearly states that the special permit for up to 4 chams "not for commercial gain or resale purposes"
that pretty much leaves private breeders. i dont want to mention any names, but i find it hard to believe that some of the major retailers who consistently have xanths available, are getting qtys like that from private breeders especially when it refers to adult chams.
also you often see wc xanths advertized?? wtf??? since both hawaii and their home range is closed then the common sense deduction is that there is no such thing as a legal wc xanth (except maybe by scientific permit).
and what about usdfw, who is so anal about import/export, seems to just look the other way when a large retailer is involved.
imo, truth be known, i think much of the cham hobby skirts the fringes of the laws. i believe according to the letter of the law, the keeper any cites animal, is supposed to have records going back to the original import of the ancestors to prove that it was legally imported in the first place?
imo, the only forum members i am aware of that are qualified to answer this question might be MR CHRIS ANDERSON, NICK MOLE, ALAN REPASHY, OR TAMARA DECHAMPS. I HOPE AT LEAST ONE OF THEM WILL ADD THEIR EXPERTICE TO THIS THREAD and shed a little light for the rest of us.
jmo.
thats a very good question and one that i have asked many times.
kenya is closed to export. and as far as i know tz is closed except for f1 farm raised animals, but its hard to keep track since they seem to change their official policy frequently.
hawaii dept of natural resources clearly states that "there is no provision for commercial export" and the hdnr 4 cham rule clearly states that the special permit for up to 4 chams "not for commercial gain or resale purposes"
that pretty much leaves private breeders. i dont want to mention any names, but i find it hard to believe that some of the major retailers who consistently have xanths available, are getting qtys like that from private breeders especially when it refers to adult chams.
also you often see wc xanths advertized?? wtf??? since both hawaii and their home range is closed then the common sense deduction is that there is no such thing as a legal wc xanth (except maybe by scientific permit).
and what about usdfw, who is so anal about import/export, seems to just look the other way when a large retailer is involved.
imo, truth be known, i think much of the cham hobby skirts the fringes of the laws. i believe according to the letter of the law, the keeper any cites animal, is supposed to have records going back to the original import of the ancestors to prove that it was legally imported in the first place?
imo, the only forum members i am aware of that are qualified to answer this question might be MR CHRIS ANDERSON, NICK MOLE, ALAN REPASHY, OR TAMARA DECHAMPS. I HOPE AT LEAST ONE OF THEM WILL ADD THEIR EXPERTICE TO THIS THREAD and shed a little light for the rest of us.
jmo.
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Psychobunny
Avid Member
I would like to know the answer too.
Very curious that some (I do mean a select few) retailers are offering them
pretty regular (depending on area) and at reasonable prices even!!??
Where are they all coming from, and who is taking the money "under the table", if from Kenya? anyone!!??
How could they possibly even get them into the USA?
Very curious that some (I do mean a select few) retailers are offering them
pretty regular (depending on area) and at reasonable prices even!!??
Where are they all coming from, and who is taking the money "under the table", if from Kenya? anyone!!??
How could they possibly even get them into the USA?
xanthoman
Avid Member
not a big fan of usdfw
its the wild caught thing that gets me. i mean if somebody advertizes cb, then that at least gives the impression that they could be legal, whether they are factually cb or not, but when somebody advertizes wc, then that implies, either the seller is aware of some loophole which the rest of us are not(and which i find highly doubtful) or that they are outright illegally obtained/imported chams.
imo, the whole wildlife trade thing is way off kilter. they (meaning wildlife import officials including usdfw) will get all anal over a single cham, yet they let other shipments have such terrible conditions that there is sometimes a very high mortality rate.
typical us policy, it seems the more money is involved, the less enforcement there is.
they deny the importation of something like a pretty orchid mantis, under the guise of protecting from non native species, even though there is at least one species of non native mantis firmly entrenched on us soil and have thus far had no negative impact. yet i can have a goliath bird eating spider, black mamba or king cobra at my door in 72 hrs, without any hot herp training in a state that does not allow hot herps.
they get all anal over a single cham, yet they often accept larger shipments with higher mortality rates. much of the chaos is done under the guise of saving the animals from extinction, but imo, common sense dictates that one of the best ways to guarantee an animal doesnt go extinct is to have a strong viable captive population.
just for the record the usdfw and state game departments regularly monitor most if not all sites doing reptile trading on us soil (including cf), so its not like they can claim they dont know whats going on.
if i had to have a non-native species at my door, i would certainly rather it be a flower mantis, than goliath spider or a black mamba.
clearly somethin stinks, and i dont think its the cages. jmo
its the wild caught thing that gets me. i mean if somebody advertizes cb, then that at least gives the impression that they could be legal, whether they are factually cb or not, but when somebody advertizes wc, then that implies, either the seller is aware of some loophole which the rest of us are not(and which i find highly doubtful) or that they are outright illegally obtained/imported chams.
imo, the whole wildlife trade thing is way off kilter. they (meaning wildlife import officials including usdfw) will get all anal over a single cham, yet they let other shipments have such terrible conditions that there is sometimes a very high mortality rate.
typical us policy, it seems the more money is involved, the less enforcement there is.
they deny the importation of something like a pretty orchid mantis, under the guise of protecting from non native species, even though there is at least one species of non native mantis firmly entrenched on us soil and have thus far had no negative impact. yet i can have a goliath bird eating spider, black mamba or king cobra at my door in 72 hrs, without any hot herp training in a state that does not allow hot herps.
they get all anal over a single cham, yet they often accept larger shipments with higher mortality rates. much of the chaos is done under the guise of saving the animals from extinction, but imo, common sense dictates that one of the best ways to guarantee an animal doesnt go extinct is to have a strong viable captive population.
just for the record the usdfw and state game departments regularly monitor most if not all sites doing reptile trading on us soil (including cf), so its not like they can claim they dont know whats going on.
if i had to have a non-native species at my door, i would certainly rather it be a flower mantis, than goliath spider or a black mamba.
clearly somethin stinks, and i dont think its the cages. jmo
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Psychobunny
Avid Member
"typical us policy, it seems the more money is involved, the less enforcement there is."
You just hit the nail on the head right here.
There are those who are pushing to BAN all trade in reptiles!!
Whoever finally wins will be the one with the most money to "grease the wheel".
I got my male jack from FL Chams, but they did not say if it was wc or cb, at
8 to 12 months old was the only discription.
I sent an email to ask, but got no reply (nothing new there!!) but they do
have some species listed as both cb and wc.
But they are out of stock, and I have no idea when (if) they will get more.
You just hit the nail on the head right here.
There are those who are pushing to BAN all trade in reptiles!!
Whoever finally wins will be the one with the most money to "grease the wheel".
I got my male jack from FL Chams, but they did not say if it was wc or cb, at
8 to 12 months old was the only discription.
I sent an email to ask, but got no reply (nothing new there!!) but they do
have some species listed as both cb and wc.
But they are out of stock, and I have no idea when (if) they will get more.
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
The only subspecies of T. jacksonii from Tanzania is T. jacksonii merumontanus. I can't recall seeing more than maybe one group of these since the Tanzanian government imposed ban on export last year and don't think they are being imported illegally in any significant number. As far as how long this ban will be in effect is anyone's guess. I keep hearing rumors that the ban has been dropped and you see a few animals coming in occasionally, but the limited number of exports coming out of Tanzania makes me think there is still restrictions. Time will tell.
The other two subspecies, T. j. jacksonii and T. j. xantholophus, are native to Kenya. Kenya banned all export of wild caught chameleons back in the 1982 but in in the last 5 years, Kenya has been issuing large numbers of captive bred and farm raised permits for the export of T. jacksonii and T. hoehnelii.
Obviously T. j. xantholophus is also present in large numbers on various Hawaiian islands. While Hawaii does not allow them to be shipped to the mainland for commercial purposes, they are still sent in extremely large numbers, which is where the majority of T. j. xantholophus in the US market come from.
As for the necessity of being able to track CITES animals back to legally imported animals, the burden of proof is currently on law enforcement officials to prove any animal you have is not legal, unless you are applying for CITES export permits, then you have to justify their legality for the permits. If you can provide a receipt for a CITES animal that you purchased legally in the contiguous US (i.e., not a species that is banned from interstate transport that you bought in another state, or not a species that is banned in a state you purchased it in, etc.), then they really can't do anything about any animal you have, unless there are other permits you need to have it.
Hope that helps clear things up.
Chris
The other two subspecies, T. j. jacksonii and T. j. xantholophus, are native to Kenya. Kenya banned all export of wild caught chameleons back in the 1982 but in in the last 5 years, Kenya has been issuing large numbers of captive bred and farm raised permits for the export of T. jacksonii and T. hoehnelii.
Obviously T. j. xantholophus is also present in large numbers on various Hawaiian islands. While Hawaii does not allow them to be shipped to the mainland for commercial purposes, they are still sent in extremely large numbers, which is where the majority of T. j. xantholophus in the US market come from.
As for the necessity of being able to track CITES animals back to legally imported animals, the burden of proof is currently on law enforcement officials to prove any animal you have is not legal, unless you are applying for CITES export permits, then you have to justify their legality for the permits. If you can provide a receipt for a CITES animal that you purchased legally in the contiguous US (i.e., not a species that is banned from interstate transport that you bought in another state, or not a species that is banned in a state you purchased it in, etc.), then they really can't do anything about any animal you have, unless there are other permits you need to have it.
Hope that helps clear things up.
Chris
Psychobunny
Avid Member
Very interesting. Thanks for that 
chameleonkev
New Member
Hawaii!!! People will go up an take a few to sell on an how easy would it be! Think about it and with these big company's money talks
Montium
New Member
The government in Hawaii is horrible about what it lets in and out of Hawaii. There is no clear guideline on how they decide what can be imported there so I imagine the same is true for what can be exported. They complain that the chameleons are eradicating native species yet at the same time they know they can't get rid of them. I guess the fear is that if they opened the commercial trade up that folks would seed chameleons everywhere. The problem with that is people are doing it anyways. Frankly if they want to do something about native destruction they ought to eliminate cats. I have never been to a place with more feral cats. Ignorance and and laziness, things all too common with a government body, are alive and well in Hawaii.
They should really think about farming them as the climate is ideal for so many varieties of chameleon. They could grow their tax base with permits and tourism but they seem too short sighted for it.
They should really think about farming them as the climate is ideal for so many varieties of chameleon. They could grow their tax base with permits and tourism but they seem too short sighted for it.
xanthoman
Avid Member
much to the dismay of hdnr, veileds are now becoming firmly established in the islands as well. given the bureaucracies possible reaction to such matters, i see this as a dangerous trend that could backfire on hawaiin cham enthusiasts.
the hawaii dept of natural resources has very clear and specific guidelines about the requirements for exportations of xanths.( however they are not compliable as a practical matter
) hawaiin xanths are not native to hawaii and therefore deemed as a invasive species and rightfully so. thats not to say that i personally view them as a problem but hdnr and many hawaiins do. that being said hdnr would like to eradicate them, but their view is levels have reached such proportion that eradication to be more damaging than allowing them to continue
. i have spent much time on the ph with hdnr in regards to xanth policies. there position is that allowing commercial harvest/export will only encourage them to be spread throughout the islands which may very well be true, but they now are pervasive throughout the islands anyway
if their ideal goal is truly one of eradication then imo, their position makes no sense. history has proven time and time again that opportunities for financial gain provide the fastest and most direct route to extinction/eradication. their position is that allowing wholesale harvest would threaten public lands and private properties. but if they view them as a pest and the lands are public then why not allow harvest with specific guidelines the same as any other harvest-able wild life administered by the state dept of wildlife
and allow private land owners to excercise their rights as such, and handle them as they see fit. personally, i think if they allowed for profit harvest that most would once again be gone from hawaii in a matter of years
.imo, common sense just dictates that doing everything possible to prevent invasive species is a good idea. however a general blanket policy that makes inequitable choices as to which species are of an adverse invasive nature makes no sense. clearly there are parts of the us where giant goliath spiders and black mambas or cobras could establish themselves with disastrous local impact
. ask any florida resident if they are more concerened about veiled chams than they are about 15' pythons jmoi would also like to thank Chris Anderson for offering his time and inside knowledge on this thread. thank you.
xanthoman
Avid Member
before mailing xantho
before everyone goes emailing me, as to how to obtain permits, as copied from hdlnr;
Any person wanting to export a chameleon from Hawaii must obtain an export permit from the Division of Forestry and Wildlife office on the island of Oahu only. The office is located at 1151 Punchbowl St., Rm. 325, Honolulu, Hawaii 96813 (808) 587-0166. We will need your photo identification card. Whether you catch it yourself or purchase it you still need an export permit. The maximum number you can export is four, and you may only do so one time. [ You may not export chameleons for commercial purposes. ]
Jackson’s Chameleons are an endangered species in their native range. Therefore, to export a chameleon to another country, you must also obtain a Cites permit from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Call (808) 861-8525.
Other important information you should know:
1. Before obtaining a chameleon to export, we recommend you check with your airline to see if it will accept it on their aircraft. i have checked with every major airline in hawaii, and none of them allow carry ons or have a practical policy of transport that conforms to hdlnr policy guidelines. hdlnr will not advise as to airlines, as they construe that as an endorsement, which is against hdlnr policy.
2. Chameleons may not be taken from island to island in Hawaii.
More information:
Hawaii does not allow Chameleons to leave the state except as hand carried animals. It is illegal to mail them. this may be illegal but I of know of at least a couple of parties that regularly do this, imo, this is likely how the majority of xanths end up from hawaii to the states.
It is important for pet fanciers to understand that chameleons, as an alien species that is not native to Hawaii, are not welcome in Hawai‘i.
Chameleons themselves prey on insects and have shown the ability to spread widely into forest areas where they are yet another predator on Hawai‘i's native insects. Each species of animal that may be accidentally or intentionally introduced into the Hawaiian forest also increases the potential prey base for Brown Tree Snakes and other snakes, which increases the likelihood of these alien species successfully establishing populations. Illegal chameleon exporting is still occurring. Collectors trespass and damage private property in addition to keeping the animals they catch in large numbers in residential areas, potentially exposing themselves and their neighbors to salmonella. omg, not salmonella
Why doesn’t the state encourage people to catch and export the animals we don't want? Because when there is a potential profit to be made these individuals have moved Jackson's Chameleons and other species around the islands to "ranch" them in wilderness areas. Because the amount of captures does not really seem to significantly reduce the population of chameleons and encourages collectors to spread them to new areas, the State of Hawaii Department of Land and Natural Resources instituted the policy of making commercial export illegal.
For unusual and illegal animals where the priority is capturing the animal as quickly as possible call the Department of Agriculture pest hot line at 586-7378.
For information about specific statutes regarding injurious alien species, or to talk with a taxonomist about reporting a new species in their area call the State Invasive Species Coordinator at 587-0164.
i have also viewed and requested copies of the permit but was declined supposedly for reasons of security. there reasoning is that they do not want the format/appearance of the specific form to be widely available due to concerns of counterfeit permits.
before everyone goes emailing me, as to how to obtain permits, as copied from hdlnr;
Any person wanting to export a chameleon from Hawaii must obtain an export permit from the Division of Forestry and Wildlife office on the island of Oahu only. The office is located at 1151 Punchbowl St., Rm. 325, Honolulu, Hawaii 96813 (808) 587-0166. We will need your photo identification card. Whether you catch it yourself or purchase it you still need an export permit. The maximum number you can export is four, and you may only do so one time. [ You may not export chameleons for commercial purposes. ]
Jackson’s Chameleons are an endangered species in their native range. Therefore, to export a chameleon to another country, you must also obtain a Cites permit from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Call (808) 861-8525.
Other important information you should know:
1. Before obtaining a chameleon to export, we recommend you check with your airline to see if it will accept it on their aircraft. i have checked with every major airline in hawaii, and none of them allow carry ons or have a practical policy of transport that conforms to hdlnr policy guidelines. hdlnr will not advise as to airlines, as they construe that as an endorsement, which is against hdlnr policy.
2. Chameleons may not be taken from island to island in Hawaii.
More information:
Hawaii does not allow Chameleons to leave the state except as hand carried animals. It is illegal to mail them. this may be illegal but I of know of at least a couple of parties that regularly do this, imo, this is likely how the majority of xanths end up from hawaii to the states.
It is important for pet fanciers to understand that chameleons, as an alien species that is not native to Hawaii, are not welcome in Hawai‘i.
Chameleons themselves prey on insects and have shown the ability to spread widely into forest areas where they are yet another predator on Hawai‘i's native insects. Each species of animal that may be accidentally or intentionally introduced into the Hawaiian forest also increases the potential prey base for Brown Tree Snakes and other snakes, which increases the likelihood of these alien species successfully establishing populations. Illegal chameleon exporting is still occurring. Collectors trespass and damage private property in addition to keeping the animals they catch in large numbers in residential areas, potentially exposing themselves and their neighbors to salmonella. omg, not salmonella
Why doesn’t the state encourage people to catch and export the animals we don't want? Because when there is a potential profit to be made these individuals have moved Jackson's Chameleons and other species around the islands to "ranch" them in wilderness areas. Because the amount of captures does not really seem to significantly reduce the population of chameleons and encourages collectors to spread them to new areas, the State of Hawaii Department of Land and Natural Resources instituted the policy of making commercial export illegal.
For unusual and illegal animals where the priority is capturing the animal as quickly as possible call the Department of Agriculture pest hot line at 586-7378.
For information about specific statutes regarding injurious alien species, or to talk with a taxonomist about reporting a new species in their area call the State Invasive Species Coordinator at 587-0164.
i have also viewed and requested copies of the permit but was declined supposedly for reasons of security. there reasoning is that they do not want the format/appearance of the specific form to be widely available due to concerns of counterfeit permits.
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Montium
New Member
much to the dismay of hdnr, veileds are now becoming firmly established in the islands as well. given the bureaucracies possible reaction to such matters, i see this as a dangerous trend that could backfire on hawaiin cham enthusiasts.
the hawaii dept of natural resources has very clear and specific guidelines about the requirements for exportations of xanths.( however they are not compliable as a practical matter
i have spent much time on the ph with hdnr in regards to xanth policies. there position is that allowing commercial harvest/export will only encourage them to be spread throughout the islands which may very well be true, but they now are pervasive throughout the islands anyway
if their ideal goal is truly one of eradication then imo, their position makes no sense. history has proven time and time again that opportunities for financial gain provide the fastest and most direct route to extinction/eradication. their position is that allowing wholesale harvest would threaten public lands and private properties. but if they view them as a pest and the lands are public then why not allow harvest with specific guidelines the same as any other harvest-able wild life administered by the state dept of wildlife
imo, common sense just dictates that doing everything possible to prevent invasive species is a good idea. however a general blanket policy that makes inequitable choices as to which species are of an adverse invasive nature makes no sense. clearly there are parts of the us where giant goliath spiders and black mambas or cobras could establish themselves with disastrous local impact
i would also like to thank Chris Anderson for offering his time and inside knowledge on this thread. thank you.
What I said was they have no clear guidelines on their selection process of what they allow in. When I asked why they allowed one type of creature in but not another almost identical one, they couldn't give me an answer. They allow red eared sliders into Hawaii but not Mata Matas for example. Pound for pound a red ear will destroy FAR more than a Mata Mata. They will eat anything including other red ears and have been known to be partially salt tolerant. So it is a far more dangerous animal to place in the islands than some other turtles but because there is a market for the meat, they let them in.
So no, they don't have clear guidelines on how they determine what they are going to prohibit. It's as if they have a dart board and whatever page number they hit in a picture book of animals is what they ban.
Thats very interesting! I am glad I asked, so it seems it would be either Kenya or Hawaii were they are coming from then? I would think if Kenya is ranching then exportering there would be more species available? So Hawaii might be the more probable place there coming from then?
xanthoman
Avid Member
kenya is steadfastly closed to all cites exports farmed or otherwise. neighboring tanzania has an unstable export policy and exports a limited # of f1 farm raised cites exports. Mountain Bird and Trophy is probably the most prolific exporter of legal f1 chams. as a wild guess, i would say that probably 95%++ of all chams on the market in the pet trade are of hawaiin origins.
jmo
Adam Harrelson
Member
there's different sub species in different countries such as mt. kenya is one subspecies
xanthoman
Avid Member
they dont let in any non-native species that are not already firmly entrenched. red eared sliders are already firmly entrenched in the islands with no hope of eradication and have been for some time. there is no known existing populations of mata mata in the islands so that is why they are not allowed. i think they learned their lesson on the red eared sliders.
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Jul/08/ln/507080375.html
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xanthoman
Avid Member
xanths, j jacksonii, and willegensis come from mt kenya in kenya ( but all 3 as well as merus, are subject to being farm raised in tz). merus come from mt meru in tanzania. most xanths in the pet trade come from hawaii.
there is now some scientific debate as to whether willegensis is actually a separate species or just a color variation of j jacksonii
i first proposed this notion over 4 years ago and was promptly corrected by many, now its a matter of scientific debate.
http://www.geocities.ws/chamjacksonii/introduction.html
http://www.geocities.ws/chamjacksonii/introduction.html#wille
http://www.hear.org/species/chamaeleo_jacksonii/
http://www.itis.gov/servlet/SingleR...=every&search_span=exactly_for&categories=All
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ADCHAM/message/4467
http://translate.google.com/transla...a=X&ei=_M_0T7S_Acna2wWJ09TEBg&ved=0CHIQ7gEwCA
just for grins heres some great shots of a xanth giving birth
http://chameleonfarm.com/2011/01/10/a-chameleon-is-born/
heres a great shot of a willigensis, looks just like a j jacksonii to me
http://chameleonfarm.com/2011/01/11/chameleons-at-esotika-perugia-2011/#jp-carousel-116
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Thanks Xanthoman, I am glad if WC there coming from an introduced population rather than from there native range(though I dont see them doing much damage to HW compared to other introduced species) plus they dont have as far to go to during shipping, mine was in bettter shape then I thought for a WC I wonder if that is why. Also if there coming from HW would they not have reduced parasite loads? Though I wonder a bit now about inbreeding/founder effect in the population? Does it say anywere how many were released to start the population?
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Kenya is closed to all Wild Caught exports of its chameleons, but not to Farm Raised or Captive Bred exports. They have been issuing permits and exporting large numbers of "Captive Bred" and "Farm Raised" chameleons for a number of years now. The T. jacksonii they have been sending out, however, are mostly T. j. jacksonii so the vast majority of the T. j. xantholophus on the market are still of Hawaiian origin.
I really don't think there is any scientific debate at all at this point. The only debate is from sellers who are trying to distinguish T. j. jacksonii that are more colorful than some of the other T. j. jacksonii populations (this subspecies is the most variable of the three subspecies). Ultimately, no published description of "willegensis" has ever been made in any journal and no type specimens have been assigned, so scientifically there is no such thing as "Trioceros jacksonii willegensis". The name is simply a nomen nudum.
Chris
