WARNING, GRAPHIC PHOTOS—Necropsy of Panther with severe nutritional MBD

[Zubi]

Wow that was very informative, but very sad. I am glad you put it out of its misery. It makes me very mad when people just dont simply read for a few hours about how to properly care for these animals. RIP little guy

 

[Dr O]

Dr. O, thank you for doing this. I'm a wimp so I didn't want to see the pictures, but I was very interested in reading your comments. If there are other wimps, right click on the first post in the thread, select "view source"....scroll past all the pretty colored stuff and read the blocks of black typing.

in your opinion, is there, in fact, a danger of over supplementing with calcium?

thanks for the "hints for wimps" Eliza!

but I want everyone to know the answer is YES YES YES! owners and some vets tend to get very overzealous with their treatment of MBD, and the lizard can be swung completely in the opposite direction. part of treatment of MBD includes repeated bloodwork just to make sure something like this isn't happening. and it's very easy for owners to feel that they have "done enough" or "spent enough" that they can be dismissive of further periodic bloodwork. it's human nature, but not good medicine.

 

[Dr O]

Wow that was very informative, but very sad. I am glad you put it out of its misery. It makes me very mad when people just dont simply read for a few hours about how to properly care for these animals. RIP little guy

yeah........particularly sad when the owner apparently has another cham as well which is obviously getting the same husbandry, but it's "acting fine".

 

[smcdiarmid]

additionally, all of the aforementioned diseases can cause this in humans as well, but many calcifications on radiographs may also just be the result of some scar tissue formation within the organ. for instance, after an extensive backpacking trip through SE Asia for 6 months I came home with a visible calcified lesion in my lower left lung. likely the result of a walled-off infection or parasite. but it has remained the exact same size for over 10 years and neither my doctors or myself are concerned about it. something like that may be commonly seen on radiographs of any creature. but if it's a disease process, the lesions will grow and/or multiply. and continued oversupplementation of minerals and vitamins would do that as well.

Absolutely, most of the calcifications on radiographs are indeed benign calcification with no concerns at all!
Now I'm afraid of turning my poor girl into a block of calcium stone! Maybe not that excessive but... if a person was to supplement with calcium without D3 every feeding should it only be on half the feeders (I usually try and stay around 8 crickets/day since I am trying another users advice on preventing an infertile clutch). Of course, thats not to mention the calcium with D3 every so often (she doesn't get much outside time because of my current location) and the multivitamin once a month or so. Or should there be days with no supplementing whatsoever to 'flush out' the excess vitamins and minerals?

Also, I forgot to comment on the informative nature of the thread. It makes things so much more real when you're able to see the inner workings on a living creature and the impact a disease process can have on the body. Thanks so much! Your posts are always so informative to read!

 

[harmona1]

yeah........particularly sad when the owner apparently has another cham as well which is obviously getting the same husbandry, but it's "acting fine".

For that other cham it's probably only a matter of time. But thanks for euthanizing this poor little guy.

And thank you so much for posting the pics and play-by-play of the necropsy. I'm a vet tech student, and found this absolutely fascinating!

 

[Elizadolots]

I think smcdiarmid's point is what I'm most interested in. Is over supplementation of calcium at the owner level a concern? Is it true--as some have claimed--that owners cannot over supplement with calcium?

 

[ataraxia]

The only possible way i can see an animal being subjected to overdosing of plain calcium by itself is with the use of supplement d3 and or administered high amounts of calcium multiples times daily over a period of time.

The use of uvb lights, natural sunlight and a normal dusting of plain calcium on feeders at every feeding. If this caused harm i would have seen issues long ago.

This is going to throw red flags up to people when it doesn't even pertain to normal use of plain calcium.

 

[EKEKO]

This was truly amazing to watch and read...You just reminded me of how much I wanted to be a Veterinarian. It's sad that people neglect lives of animals like this, that little guy was suffering for quite a while i would imagine.

I can't wait to hear what was the reason for the red tinged fluid. And also wanted to know like quite a few of us...How can you know what is too much Calcium, what are the signs to look for.

Thank you for the enlightenement

 

[Dr O]

The only possible way i can see an animal being subjected to overdosing of plain calcium by itself is with the use of supplement d3 and or administered high amounts of calcium multiples times daily over a period of time.

The use of uvb lights, natural sunlight and a normal dusting of plain calcium on feeders at every feeding. If this caused harm i would have seen issues long ago.

This is going to throw red flags up to people when it doesn't even pertain to normal use of plain calcium.

to eliza and smc, what ataraxia posted above answers your questions and is defintely true 99% of the time. we are not doing that kind of damage with typical care as it conforms to the information that is available today.

however, there should be no red flags here. my answer was regarding overzealous amounts of calcium without followup in a medical crisis and was stated as such. nothing in this case ever had anything to do with normal use of plain calcium and i hope that doesn't come through, or else i failed my point of posting this. if i write something goofy, please call me on it so incorrect info isn't out there.

either way, it is off-topic, and can be a thread unto itself. i would appreciate if we could keep the comments here related to the situation presented and not get sidetracked.

 

[Dr O]

And also wanted to know like quite a few of us...How can you know what is too much Calcium, what are the signs to look for.

Thank you for the enlightenement

last post re: calcium on this thread for posterity!

everyone do your normal dustings as you have, and do better at it if you know you should!

if it's MBD and you are treating, see a good vet (i know, i know) and follow-through with his/her advice as much as you possibly can.


and thank you and others for the kind comments!

 

[Dr O]

absolutely, abnormal overuse of calcium/vit. D/and UVB can lead to calcification of soft tissues which is often irreversible. i want to be clear, this is a possibility when mega-doses are being used in treatment of a calcium disorder. the kidneys tend to be the initial organs that are damaged, but it can lead anywhere. primary renal disease, hyperparathyroidism, and diets too high in protein can also be causes. additionally, calcification of soft tissues is only one of the problems with hypercalcemia; other concurrent problems tend be even more serious in their nature.

looking back at the thread, i did see how this part read and it was not as clear as it should have been, so i edited it to this. sorry if this part caused any confusion!

 

[arnau666]

thank you for posting this ! very interesting and informative !i am sad for the lil guy ... ! i know this sounds awful but i am looking forward to see more !

 

[animallover27]

Thank you for posting this - understanding my panther's anatomy helps me care for him better I think ... though the eye pics were hard to look at to me ...
I have a doctorate in psychology so seeing the design of the brain helped me to understand what is going on in his head .... though there is some recognition of people there - so there is a tiny bit of advanced processing ... I know mine will walk onto my hand but hiss and even strike at other people if they dare to put their hand in his space ...

 

[Drago]

Great post. Thank you for taking the time to put it together for us.

 

[blackened]

Dr O, thank you so much for taking the time to detail the autopsy. Absolutely fascinating biology lesson!! I'm really looking forward to re-reading this when I get home.

Wow were those first few images of the chameleon suffering difficult to look at or what??

Bless you for doing the right thing!!!

 

[Psychobunny]

Thank u Dr O for this very excelent information, it is of great value to me and
I have even printed a copy for my cham file.

You cant find color pics and info like this in any book!!

You are a real asset to this forum Dr O

P.S what was the husbandry history details?
I would like to know exactly what causes such extreme mbd and how long it takes to develop
so much organ damage!?

Is this the result of deliberate abuse by the owner?

 

[dominicthechameleon]

Wow ! Very interesting to learn about the anatomy of a chameleon.

 

[Psychobunny]

Wow ! Very interesting to learn about the anatomy of a chameleon.

Your in Bethesda?
I am in Rockville as I type this! I live in College Park.
U R my neighbor

 

[Chuck G]

Very good post. Thanks!

 

[Olimpia]

I'm glad to see these up, Kevin! I think they're an awesome asset for members. Although I'm still sad that the little guy didn't make it, he seemed so sweet despite everything that was going on (until he pooped on Jonathan!)

My comment about the calcification was out of curiosity, since I didn't know what caused gritty organs but I'd read about the calcification of tissues.