Warning About New Madagascar Quota Species

[rshewfel]

No. There's NO room for experiments with chameleons. And if somebody who keeps and breeds them successfully says sth it should be seen as a low. And you know why ? Because this person belongs to the unbelievable small amount of people doing it right.

Seriously, I think your missing the point. If we had successful long term chameleon breeders here in the US, we wouldn't be having a debate. We would just be copying them, and enjoying our hobby. If you got it right, not much need to experiment.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Back in the 90's anybody could buy a wild caught gravid Parsons for 50 bucks. Just because you knew someone that hatched a few don't make you a Parsoni breeder. Look at how many were hatched, a small hand full and less than that since then.
I wish you luck in breeding these new species. Everyone will be watching and waiting for you to produce but I really don't think you understand the difficulties involved.
These will be a quite bit harder to breed than the grasshoppers you sell care sheets for.

I was there in the early 1990's you weren't. I have got much more experience and understanding of what it requires to breed these species much more than you. Do not try to condescended.

 

[eisentrauti]

Seriously, I think your missing the point. If we had successful long term chameleon breeders here in the US, we wouldn't be having a debate. We would just be copying them, and enjoying our hobby. If you got it right, not much need to experiment.

There are few, very few out there in the US and obviously they aren't copied enough. And there are few guys in Europe as well who do more for the hobby than 90% of the rest does. There are a few things which are shared by nearly all the people having success for generations/years.
First of all the focus on a very small amount of species/single species. They stick to those species even if the prices for juveniles arent on a linear way up and if they breed a species successfully they keep more than a pair or two because they know that size/quantity matters. It happens so fast with chameleons that single specimen die and if your "breeding group" consists of 1.2 animals or a single pair, a single dying animal can be already the end of all attempts.
Even if those things are taken into consideration, there's still some sort of luck involved. As an example I once had 3.5 F1 adult merumontanus but none of the males chased the females. No matter what I did. With merumontanus that's not the biggest problem because it's possible to get WC animals and if you buy several WC males there will be one guy who knows what to do, but when it comes to other species you can wait for months/years.
Of course it's better to house a single pair and try to breed a species, but the chance that some kind of sustainable breeding starts with it is so close to zero, that nobody would bet on it.
So for silencing ones own conscience its of course better to stick to the "I'm trying to breed this species to establish in the captivity" than to realize that keeping a single pair of difficult species is just the typical consumer behavior.

While I hope to get proved to be wrong on all the negative things I'm posting in this thread, I would bet a huge amount of money that the new quotas won't establish a single species more in the hobby

 

[Todnedo]

I was there in the early 1990's you weren't. I have got much more experience and understanding of what it requires to breed these species much more than you. Do not try to condescended.

I'm sure you do Jeremy, soon we will see your experience and understanding of the species you have never worked with.

 

[rshewfel]

While I hope to get proved to be wrong on all the negative things I'm posting in this thread, I would bet a huge amount of money that the new quotas won't establish a single species more in the hobby

I agree with this completely. However, the hobby sure would be a lot more enjoyable if more captive bred species were more readily available. Though I have had success with wild-caughts, I have also had terrible failures. It is not fun to personally watch and/or read about a group of animals dying.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I'm sure you do Jeremy, soon we will see your experience and understanding of the species you have never worked with.

Would you stop posting on my thread? This is turning this thread into a personal attack towards me and none of your posts have been pertinent to this threads conversation and your information is not even accurate. If you were actually reading this thread your elementary comprehension would have already understood that I have worked with these species and I have accomplished results with these species already.

Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

While I hope to get proved to be wrong on all the negative things I'm posting in this thread, I would bet a huge amount of money that the new quotas won't establish a single species more in the hobby

Back in 2009 if I were to ask if there would be new quotas of Madagascar chameleons I think most everyone would have said (me included) most probable not. If I were to ask if there was going to be new Madagascar quotas of Calumma parsonii parsonii I think most everyone would have said even more less probable. I think there are the prospects that there could be some species that could become established. From what I have seen Calumma nasutum and Calumma parsonni (Andreas).

Jeremy A. Rich

 

[eisentrauti]

I agree with this completely. However, the hobby sure would be a lot more enjoyable if more captive bred species were more readily available. Though I have had success with wild-caughts, I have also had terrible failures. It is not fun to personally watch and/or read about a group of animals dying.

Some people here breed Kinyongia species but fail to find serious buyers for the juveniles. I was involved in 2 or 3 exports of Bradypodion species with CB subadult-adult animals but the attempts to establish/breed them failed completely.

Just check the first page of this forum. Half of the threads are jokes, people are unable to write scientific names correct, one person is asking what the "bulge" at the tail base of an adult chameleon is and so on. Those threads are a clear indicator that the majority of the keepers isn't informed properly. Not to be informed as good as possible is completely inexcusable because affected chameleons are really unforgivable when it comes to husbandry mistakes.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

No. There's NO room for experiments with chameleons. And if somebody who keeps and breeds them successfully says sth it should be seen as a low. And you know why ? Because this person belongs to the unbelievable small amount of people doing it right.

I couldn't disagree with this more. I'm hoping you spoke out of context.

I've kept reptiles for forty years continuously and I can say first hand that experimenting a little when it comes to lighting, or nutrition, or branch textures, or ventilation, or temps, or a host of things is actually a good thing if it done for the right reasons and done well. That does not imply I'd just ignore what somebody else has learned, nobody wants to reinvent the wheel afterall, but there is rarely only one way to do things and you can't tell me that sometimes you can't improve upon another method.

 

[ataraxia]

Some people here breed Kinyongia species but fail to find serious buyers for the juveniles. I was involved in 2 or 3 exports of Bradypodion species with CB subadult-adult animals but the attempts to establish/breed them failed completely.

What is stated here will be what some will find out in the end. Im not saying i have been here since the dinosaurs (far from it) but i have kept, hatched, raised and bred some species i personally thought were awesome, then to find out these had a small following. Selling the babies was hard and ended up discounting for a loss. This ended up with me having no motivation to continue on with breeding these species that were considered rare from a captive bred, hatched or broad point.

We are among enthusiast here. Outside of the forums there are few but it is extremely small group, EXTREMELY. Go to any reptile show in your area, people standing around a jacksons or a vieled chameleon on a table. First ask if they know what the animal is before them and then ask if they have heard of a Thamnobates or a Hoehnelii. 99.9999% will say "whats that"?? I do shows often and i still get asked "what kind of chameleon is that?" and it is a panther. There is a reason the main 2 chameleons get bred and it is beyond the facts many have stated here. These animals have been in the market for 10+ years now. Many that dont know what they are looking at have seen it in a magazine, commercial, at a friends house, pet store or even at a reptile expo. If we have 5,000 of these rare species hatching out here in the US. Those breeders involved in this kind of mass production will find out what i am stating here real quick with a 1500-2000 price tag.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

What is stated here will be what some will find out in the end. Im not saying i have been here since the dinosaurs (far from it) but i have kept, hatched, raised and bred some species i personally thought were awesome, then to find out these had a small following. Selling the babies was hard and ended up discounting for a loss. This ended up with me having no motivation to continue on with breeding these species that were considered rare from a captive bred, hatched or broad point.

We are among enthusiast here. Outside of the forums there are few but it is extremely small group, EXTREMELY. Go to any reptile show in your area, people standing around a jacksons or a vieled chameleon on a table. First ask if they know what the animal is before them and then ask if they have heard of a Thamnobates or a Hoehnelii. 99.9999% will say "whats that"?? I do shows often and i still get asked "what kind of chameleon is that?" and it is a panther. There is a reason the main 2 chameleons get bred and it is beyond the facts many have stated here. These animals have been in the market for 10+ years now. Many that dont know what they are looking at have seen it in a magazine, commercial, at a friends house, pet store or even at a reptile expo. If we have 5,000 parsonii hatching out here in the US. Those breeders involved in this kind of mass production will find out what i am stating here real quick with a 1500-2000 price tag.

There is the prospect/possibility that many of the old keepers, now that Madagascar has reopened, will restart the hobby again. I think CarlC is one and there is plenty capable others.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Mike Fisher]

If we have 5,000 of these rare species hatching out here in the US. Those breeders involved in this kind of mass production will find out what i am stating here real quick with a 1500-2000 price tag.

That would be a good success but the price will go from thousands to hundreds real quick.

 

[Action Jackson]

Interesting thread once you get past all the bickering.

I think working with the more unusual species here in the US is all about experimenting. There is little to no information on how to keep these species or successes here.

I am currently working with three species with the goal of multiple generations in mind. I've approached each one with the same mindset. I would spend whatever it takes to properly house, feed and take care of them.

I'm currently 3 years into raising and breeding Parsonii. This project has been expensive and stressful but well worth it in my opinion. My group consist of 1.3 with one clutch of fertile eggs so far. Absolutely awesome chameleons and I feel privileged to have them.

I'm about 2 1/2 years into my J.merumontanous breeding project. I tried wild caught first and then LTC and then CB imports from Europe. So far i've had three clutches and i'm expecting another soon from 4 different females. I have had to experiment quite a bit to get things right and each successive clutch appears to be better and better. I have more females in line to continue breeding. I'm at f2 with these. My group currently is at 6.5.14 These chameleons grow slower then the other types of Jackson's so getting females to breeding size takes longer.

I'm also working with johnstoni. I can already see they will be a new challenge and although they seem ok so far i have no illusions as to their long term viability. I have a 2.2 group with 2 gravid females.

All three of these chameleon species required a fairly decent outlay of funds with no guarantee of success and little to no information available as to their care. Will I be able to sell the babies? I'm sure I will. Will the people I sell to be able to extend the line? Most will not or won't have an interest in doing so.

The same goes for Quads, Carpets, kinyongia, Parsonii and others IMO.

 

[ataraxia]

That would be a good success but the price will go from thousands to hundreds real quick.

Its a sad harsh reality check. Same can be had with the johnstoni and the altegs thats came in. I wanted a couple pairs of those hoe's so bad but knew if i bred them. If the people of the forums could not keep up with sales. I would not make it on kingsnake or faunna or local shows. I cant keep all the kids i could produce

Someone could be successful but it would take a lot of work:
1. Marketing. Having great pictures produced and posted everywhere as often as you can. Talk about them often, everywhere. Try to get a spot in magazines. Do big reptile shows often like the NARBC, Super shows, etc...A website. You see where i am going with this.
2. Supporters. You have to have people backing you and your animals. It really helps to have big names to go with this.
3. Multiple lines. This would insure those looking to breed that there is other genetics to choose from.
4. Price.
5. Ultimately the animal has to be appealing.

 

[CarlC]

There is the prospect/possibility that many of the old keepers, now that Madagascar has reopened, will restart the hobby again. I think CarlC is one and there is plenty capable others.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

I will not be getting involved with any of these species at this time. I have made the decision to work with werneri. To do that I won't be able to provide conditions that would benefit any of the Malagasy species that will be available.

I have reserved 5 pair of werneri from the next Tanzania import to add to my current 2 pair.

Carl

 

[Mike Fisher]

Someone could be successful but it would take a lot of work:
1. Marketing. Having great pictures produced and posted everywhere as often as you can. Talk about them often, everywhere. Try to get a spot in magazines. Do big reptile shows often like the NARBC, Super shows, etc...A website. You see where i am going with this.
2. Supporters. You have to have people backing you and your animals. It really helps to have big names to go with this.
3. Multiple lines. This would insure those looking to breed that there is other genetics to choose from.
4. Price.
5. Ultimately the animal has to be appealing.

And there's the rub. To sell the surplus, you make them seem like the greatest thing since sliced bread, knowing that maybe only a handful of people in the USA would be able to provide what they need. But if you screen all of your customer's to the full extent, you'll be stuck with them. It is a moral/ethical dilemma.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I will not be getting involved with any of these species at this time. I have made the decision to work with werneri. To do that I won't be able to provide conditions that would benefit any of the Malagasy species that will be available.

I have reserved 5 pair of werneri from the next Tanzania import to add to my current 2 pair.

Carl

Carl

That is great to hear and a great example of an experienced capable keeper here in the USA establishing a breeding program. Knock on wood! Great Trioceros species too.


Kind Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

With these species being imported I still highly recommend chameleon enthusiasts to travel to Madagascar to observe these species in their natural habitat. Chameleons are great to watch in captivity. However they are absolutely best seen in the wild.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Chameleonmaster]

I just checked cities and C. crypticum has prep. written next to it. It could possibly become a quota species or it is they just don't have a number yet.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I just checked cities and C. crypticum has prep. written next to it. It could possibly become a quota species or it is they just don't have a number yet.

Calumma crypticum may not make the export list this year. There are prospects for next year though.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich