Wanting more information.....

[jajeanpierre]

The expense is the easy part. Any person with moderate means can get and set up a chameleon, minature giraffes, or whatever. The thing that I don't see anyone mentioning is the soul drenching love for these animals that compel us to do whatever it takes to keep them healthy to the best of our abilities. The love that drives us as keepers to CONSISTANTLY ENDURE the required routine once the novelty wears off. To not only root out all information about the chameleons themselves but all the peripheral subjects as well. Nutrition, entomology, lighting and etc. have all been studied by any keeper worth their salt. The calcium supplementation you speak of is to correct an imbalance in the commercially available feeder insects (which you have to take care of as if they were pets also). If your vet was indeed speaking of captive bred when they made that statement, he/she may be no more qualified to advise on this topic than to take that x-ray that was unusable. CBB chameleons are far superior and many have lived full life expectancy. Wild-caughts are the ones that crash because the are still finding their way into the hands of novices instead of experienced breeders who know what their specialized requirements are and can give hope that their removal from the wild is not all for naught by becoming a genetic dead end.

Besides the commitment I've spoken of earlier, what makes them harder is, with so many specialized faculties, any error in nutrition or a nutritionally associated factor shows itself as a quick crash because they are so good at hiding illness and deficiencies. But the will to endure is the most challenging obstacle most people have to overcome in my opinion.

Look, I don't have a love affair with my toilet, but I still clean it regularly. You don't have to have a "soul drenching love" for the animal to do what is necessary to maintain it properly.

While I was very disappointed with the quality of the x-rays, my vet is, I believe, the best reptile vet in the city. He was voicing his observations. I believe he was the vet for a large breeding facility at one time.

Look at wild caught specimens that are mature at import and then look at the same species several generation into a captive breeding program. They look different. Their scales are different. We're not getting something right with them, regardless of how carefully we feed and supplement them.

 

[jajeanpierre]

My biggest concern for you personally is that you are living with your parents and that you have stated they are not keen on keeping live crickets. If your parents are not completely 100% on board with this, then it will end badly for you and ultimately for the chameleon.

I am speaking from personal experience. When I was in high school I got an african grey parrot. Halfway into my first year of college my parents insisted I sell the bird as they did not want to care for him. It was heartbreaking for me and very unfair to the bird. I'm not sure I found the best situation for him and so he very well may have suffered/be suffering for the rest of his life.

You make some excellent points.

I'm really sorry you had to rehome your Grey, just a heart breaking experience for you and the Grey. I have a couple of Greys and adore them.

 

[fluxlizard]

Look at wild caught specimens that are mature at import and then look at the same species several generation into a captive breeding program. They look different. Their scales are different. We're not getting something right with them, regardless of how carefully we feed and supplement them.

Diet plays a big role in how various species look- a bigger role than most realize. I've got 2 good examples.

The first is how diet changes the way our faces look according to our nationalities. At first this sounds silly, but I saw a program on tv once years ago that showed asian immigrants children's faces and bone structure vs their native relations. The program explained how changes had occurred from diet and showed examples in caucasians as well. (Not to mention body- in my own family, the asian-americans that were born here grew much taller than their parents and older siblings).

The second example- 2 times I sold decent sized groups of bearded dragons to people who lived locally (perhaps a dozen or so dragons both times). When I visited many months/years later I was astonished- the head shape was significantly different than those I raised, both times. In the first case the head shape was shorter, broader, with a shorter nose than mine. In the second, the head shape was elongated and narrower. Diets were different than mine, and so were environmental conditions. Their dragons were indoor lizards with short and mild brumation periods- mine were mainly outdoor lizards with some indoor time and much longer, much colder brumation periods. Mine were exposed to a much higher level of ambient humidity outdoors than theirs kept indoors. Mine got sunlight, theirs got flourescent tubes. I use lots of pellets and some greens and very few insects once the lizards are grown, the example with the shorter, blunter snouts fed lots of greens, no pellets and some insects. The long narrow snouts were primarily insect eaters (I think I have that right- it may have been the reverse). There are many variables that can effect appearance.

I think it jumping the gun a bit to conclude that because the chameleons do not look like exactly like their ancestors, it is therefore a sign that something is "wrong". I think factors like reproductive vigour and long term health are much better indicators.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I am adding my thoughts in red

Gee, Laurie, I'm not writing a tome on chameleon care. The person keeping the chameleon needs to do the research, which s/he indicated s/he was up to do. They need to find what "right" means.

I see an awful lot of bad outcomes for chameleons owned by people who have owned other reptiles before a chameleon.

The writer was not interested in another reptile. S/he wanted only a chameleon. There is nothing wrong with that. It can be done.

Even you as a very experienced keeper are having problems getting the supplementation right for three females of the same species. I have to question why. Same species, same nutritional requirements. Off the top of my head, and I'm not a vet, there are many possibilities, ranging from compromised kidney/liver/endocrine or other organ function (basically poor health), inappropriate ingredients in the supplements that some of your females handle better than others or even poor quality control of the supplements. (Unregulated human supplements have very poor quality control--what is listed on the bottle is not what is actually inside. That's for human supplements--imagine how bad a reptile supplement is.) Who know why your chameleons don't handle the supplementation, but the fact they don't tells you something is amiss.

 

[fluxlizard]

The love that drives us as keepers to CONSISTANTLY ENDURE the required routine once the novelty wears off

Geez I'm glad I still find them incredibly fascinating and fun after all these years!

Seriously- for a single chameleon pet, it really isn't that much to endure. You need to feed it (a couple minutes) every other day (or daily if you prefer), water it (for a single pet could be as easy as a quick 30 second spritz and a quick cleaning a catch bowl and filling a drip cup which takes perhaps 3 minutes) and a spotclean (another minute?).

I really don't get how 5 minutes or so a day is a lot to endure for a pet. Any pet will require that much commitment.

Vet bills are the same whether the sick animal is a chameleon, a green anole, a bearded dragon, a hamster, a mouse, etc. They don't adjust according to the species of animal involved.

To properly care for any lizard, the biological variables are the same.

It is true that a bearded dragon can endure suboptimal conditions longer. But it will not be healthy and it will not be happy. And it cannot endure those conditions forever without consequences.

You cannot fudge diet of any lizard and escape MBD or cleanliness and escape parasites or bacteria or temperature and ventilation and escape respiratory infection regardless of what species of lizard you are keeping.

Temperature, lighting, diet, supplementation, humidity- these are all important for any lizard.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Diet plays a big role in how various species look- a bigger role than most realize. I've got 2 good examples.


I think it jumping the gun a bit to conclude that because the chameleons do not look like exactly like their ancestors, it is therefore a sign that something is "wrong". I think factors like reproductive vigour and long term health are much better indicators.

Your point is taken, but Linda Davison of Sticky Tongues Farms has written about the reduced breeding of several generations in captivity.

I just believe there is a problem with how they are kept in captivity. They are tough in the wild, why so delicate in captivity? I've driven all through the veiled chameleon's range. That is one tough lizard to survive there! Yet many end up with MBD and the females die from abnormal reproductive problems. There is still much to be learned.

 

[laurie]

Gee, Laurie, I'm not writing a tome on chameleon care. The person keeping the chameleon needs to do the research, which s/he indicated s/he was up to do. They need to find what "right" means.

I see an awful lot of bad outcomes for chameleons owned by people who have owned other reptiles before a chameleon.

The writer was not interested in another reptile. S/he wanted only a chameleon. There is nothing wrong with that. It can be done.

Even you as a very experienced keeper are having problems getting the supplementation right for three females of the same species. I have to question why. Same species, same nutritional requirements. Off the top of my head, and I'm not a vet, there are many possibilities, ranging from compromised kidney/liver/endocrine or other organ function (basically poor health), inappropriate ingredients in the supplements that some of your females handle better than others or even poor quality control of the supplements. (Unregulated human supplements have very poor quality control--what is listed on the bottle is not what is actually inside. That's for human supplements--imagine how bad a reptile supplement is.) Who know why your chameleons don't handle the supplementation, but the fact they don't tells you something is amiss.

They do handle their supplementation, I just customize it for each cham as I do with most things for my chams. I did the same when I had 2 dogs. One gained weight faster, I adjusted the amount of food that dog ate.

All I am really trying to say, is people need time to learn. A crash course in chameleons, imo, is likely to crash the chameleon. I love mine way to much to ever want that to happen. You can make is sound easy as you don't have years of seeing long term issues, and how difficult it can be to see and correct all the little things. I am not trying to be mean, I just want you to consider the advice and encouragement you offer with not a lot to back it up.

Did you ever go look at the picture links I added for you in the quad thread? My kids are beautiful

 

[jajeanpierre]

They do handle their supplementation, I just customize it for each cham as I do with most things for my chams. I did the same when I had 2 dogs. One gained weight faster, I adjusted the amount of food that dog ate.

All I am really trying to say, is people need time to learn. A crash course in chameleons, imo, is likely to crash the chameleon. I love mine way to much to ever want that to happen. You can make is sound easy as you don't have years of seeing long term issues, and how difficult it can be to see and correct all the little things. I am not trying to be mean, I just want you to consider the advice and encouragement you offer with not a lot to back it up.

Did you ever go look at the picture links I added for you in the quad thread? My kids are beautiful

Of course I looked at the pictures from the links you posted! They are beautiful.

I'm not disputing that people should learn, and I think the original poster was doing the research.

I disagree that a crash course in chameleons is likely to crash the chameleon. Intensively studying a subject does not equate to not learning or being able to apply what has been learned. The more you read and learn, the more you learn what you don't know and what is not yet known by even the experts.

I'm not disputing that they can be tricky, but they are tricky for novices and experts alike.

I still maintain that something is not right with the supplementation being done (by everyone). A chameleon developing an edema is not comparable to one dog having a slower metabolism rate.

 

[GCash]

Geez I'm glad I still find them incredibly fascinating and fun after all these years!

Seriously- for a single chameleon pet, it really isn't that much to endure. You need to feed it (a couple minutes) every other day (or daily if you prefer), water it (for a single pet could be as easy as a quick 30 second spritz and a quick cleaning a catch bowl and filling a drip cup which takes perhaps 3 minutes) and a spotclean (another minute?).

I really don't get how 5 minutes or so a day is a lot to endure for a pet. Any pet will require that much commitment.

Vet bills are the same whether the sick animal is a chameleon, a green anole, a bearded dragon, a hamster, a mouse, etc. They don't adjust according to the species of animal involved.

To properly care for any lizard, the biological variables are the same.

It is true that a bearded dragon can endure suboptimal conditions longer. But it will not be healthy and it will not be happy. And it cannot endure those conditions forever without consequences.

You cannot fudge diet of any lizard and escape MBD or cleanliness and escape parasites or bacteria or temperature and ventilation and escape respiratory infection regardless of what species of lizard you are keeping.

Temperature, lighting, diet, supplementation, humidity- these are all important for any lizard.

Glad to hear you have the love I'm speaking of(as well as all the experienced keepers who have imparted their knowledge to members on this forum). As long as you have it, taking care of them is not a chore. I think we're more on the same page than you realize. Other species do need these requirements just not with as sharp of a learning curve which makes a better introduction. With chameleons I find myself taking as much time to care for their feeders as I do caring for the chameleons themselves since they aren't a species that can be provided prepared foods. It's a lot of work for someone if the infatuation of their "coolness" wears off.

Vet bills are vet bills. No argument there.

 

[fluxlizard]

I just believe there is a problem with how they are kept in captivity. They are tough in the wild, why so delicate in captivity? I've driven all through the veiled chameleon's range. That is one tough lizard to survive there! Yet many end up with MBD and the females die from abnormal reproductive problems. There is still much to be learned.

I do agree with this. Just not that appearance alone is an indicator of a problem when it comes to things like size, shape, roughness, etc.

Most warm loving chams like veileds have a very high turnover rate in the wild. Panthers for example rarely survive a second breeding season. They survive, they are tough in a way, but they are not long-lived tough. So I think in captivity we have some problems (death from reproductive problems) that may not exist in the wild because the females are no longer around anyway- or maybe they do and that is one reason they are no longer around.

MBD has never been a problem for mine and I used to breed lots of veileds in the early - mid 90s. Except when I tried using miner-all I without rep-cal with d3. We did not have the excellent lighting now available- I had vita-lites and chroma 50s which I later found had no uvb, but at the time had been told by someone I trusted at the lighting store that they were the same as the vita-lites. I think veileds probably use more calcium and d3 (whether from light or whatever) than panthers.

Reproductive success over many generations however, is currently a big concern of mine.

But is not an issue for a "pet" owner with a single animal.

 

[GCash]

Veileds are tough and they're tough in capitivity as well unless the passion isn't there to find out everything they need to be kept healthy. Given that and follow through, you don't see too many problems with them. Their reproductive stress comes from them coming from such a harsh environment into capitivity where food is abundant, causing them to produce huge clutches taking a toll on the female or risking them becoming eggbound.

To the OP. My posts were meant to help give you perspective on the commitment involved. If you run the gamut and all this still hasn't dissuaded you, you just might have what it takes. Good luck. We all had to start somewhere, it's just better to be accurately informed when you do.

 

[ellena]

Op

So, I guess I should have included context a little earlier. I am a college student (taking 3 classes, I have lots of free time, please dont say I won't have enough time being a student....) who is living with my parents as a convenience rather than a necessity. Because I am living with my parents, and having a good p/t job I have enough disposable income that owning a more expensive hobby pet seemed reasonable, and not completely out of my price range.

As for the people saying that what was said before was making it sound easy, I will reiterate. I took the list with a grain of salt. When I read that I needed to find the "right enclosure" etc, I took that to mean more than just something easy. Something that was suitable for my chameleon, something that provided both shade and heat and allowed them to move throughout the day to their liking. I posted earlier about how I had done a lot of research on what to do, and what not to do, and I thought I had a basic handle on what was needed.

Any new pet is a crash course, but so is having a baby. There are pet books just like there are baby books. If I get in trouble I know there are lots of resources where I can look for information that can help my chameleon not die within the first 3 weeks of me having it.
----------
Now I have some more questions that I wanted opinions on, I just wanted to try and get the thread back on track....
The breeder in my area is highly recommended and very reputable. They sell enclosures to go along with their chameleons. They have medium enclosure sets that include the basic things that I will need. Now, from my reading it sounds like I will need a bigger enclosure a couple months after I get it, and the advantage of having a smaller cage at first is so that someone can monitor their feeding. If I was planning to do cup feeding so I can ensure that I know what my chameleon is and isn't eating, is there still an advantage to owning a medium cage first? I had a thought that if I went straight for a large cage then I would save myself some expense, and the hassle of having a smaller cage laying around.

As well, with the live cricket vs parents issue. My parents just dont want the crickets in the house because they can escape if someone is not careful. They are okay with having live bugs, so something like silk worms. My mom just gets freaked out by crickets, and my dad used to work in the pet store my grandfather owned and developed a deep hatred of them because of that. I have just been reading that crickets are the main thing they eat. Would a worm only diet be a bad thing? I understand that their nutritional value would be different in some ways, but can't I just adjust the diet slightly so that the crickets are only something I have to buy 10 of every week (I understand that might be a low estimate) instead of having to keep them 24/7. As well, from my research into silk worms, their life span is longer, they take up less space, can still be gut loaded, and dont jump around. Which to me, are all positives. As well, I have thought about buying gut loaded freeze dried crickets. I understand that a chameleon might not eat them because they can tell they are dead, and some chameleons just really dont like them. But if I was able to configure a string set up so the crickets were hanging and making them more "hunt-able" COULD that be an option? I understand it will be trial-and-error to see if mine would like them, but I thought that might help.

 

[werecat]

Regarding your food questions, an all worm diet really is not an option. Could a chameleon survive on only worms? Yes, but their health would suffer and their lifespan would likely be shortened. They really require a well-rounded diet (like us). Besides the lack of variety which can lead to nutritional deficiencies, worms are typically soft-bodied (i.e.: silkworms and hornworms). Chameleons also require insects with chitin, the hard exoskeleton of bugs like crickets, mantids, and cockroaches. Think of it as "fiber" to us. Without this in the diet they will have digestive and other problems.

As far as freeze-dried or canned bugs, unfortunately these commercially available products are low in nutrition. Even if you could train a chameleon to eat dead bugs, they would not be nearly as healthy of a diet as fresh. Also, it is very unlikely that you can train a chameleon to consistently eat dead bugs. It is completely against their nature. They have evolved with a specific set of traits that are designed for eating live prey (eyes that rotate 180 degrees and a ballistic tongue). What happens if the particular chameleon you get does not take to eating live bugs? You will probably be forced to buy live bugs, re-home it, or let it starve to death.

Also, part of what makes these animals so cool is watching them hunt! No matter what you rig up, it will not be the same as a chameleon stalking live prey.

To address some other specifics in your food questions, silkworms are a great feeder as they are high in calcium. However, they are not that easy to raise as they are very susceptible to disease. They die off in mass for seemingly no reason so you may loose all of your feeders suddenly. I have had batches that were very hardy too, but others that just die for no apparent reason. Also, they can be difficult to source year-round. Even the companies that sell them online are often sold out for big chunks of the year. I would defiantly not rely on them as a primary feeder because of this.

Silkworms will gutload naturally on mulberry leaves or mulberry leaf chow, but using other foods to gutload is a little bit trickier. They will only survive on the mulberry and will die off quickly on a diet of anything else. I have found a way to gutload them with other foods right before feeding them off. I will separate the ones I want to feed off and rub the mulberry chow lightly over other veggies. They will usually start eating the other veggies. I give them an hour or two then feed them off.

Besides silkworms, other commercially available worms are not highly nutritious. Hornworms for example are mostly sacs of water (not a bad thing for hydration, but not brimming with nutrients). Superworms, butterworms and wax worms are all fairly high in fat and low in nutrients. They are considered a treat and should not be used regularly.

The diet will also depend on what the chameleon decides it likes to eat. My chameleon refuses roaches. I have tried several different species on several different occasions and he will not eat them. I have heard of chams refusing worms, so this would be a problem for you if you end up with a cham that does not like worms. They can also grow finicky when fed the same thing for too long. That is why variety is so important.

You also asked if you can buy just 10 crickets a week so that you are not keeping a great many at a time. This is possible (although a baby cham will go through much more in a week), but you will have to keep the crickets long enough to gutload them properly (at least a day or two in your care). Also, due to "cricket virus", domestic crickets have a very high die-off rate. This means that of the 10 crickets you buy, anywhere from 2-5+ will die off before you get to feed them to your cham. I have a 1/3 to 1/2 die-off rate. Just bear this in mind as you will probably have to run to the store a lot and may often run into the problem of all your crickets dying off the night before and having no food to give your cham in the morning.

If you really want to do this and do it right, you will need to use live crickets (and/or cockroaches) as those are the most easily obtainable staple feeders. You will also need to supplement this diet with a variety of worms and other bugs.

I myself have one chameleon and I buy about 25-30 crickets every 1-2 weeks. As I said, many of those die off. The rest I keep in a large cricket keeper bin and have had very good success with escapees. I have had them, but it is very rare. My husband and I are fastidious about keeping the bugs so that we minimize escapees. We have had it happen though!
*Recently my husband did not close the container completely after feeding flightless fruit flies to our mantids. I started finding them everywhere!

 

[werecat]

Forgot to address your enclosure questions. As far as cage goes, there is no real reason to get a smaller cage first when you will need to upgrade to larger in a few months, especially if you are cup feeding. I personally would go with the largest cage possible. You can do things like raise the bottom of the cage temporarily while the chameleon is still young so that they are still in a smaller space. Then bring the bottom back down when they grow older.

In my case I got a cage that was a bit smaller than what is ideal. Some would say it's the bare minimum for an adult male panther. I had planned to upgrade it down the line, but due to financial changes have not been able to. It really bugs me and I'm bummed I didn't just get a bigger cage from the start.

Btw, regarding the crickets and live bugs, is there a garage that you can keep them in so that they are not in the house? Would this be ok with your parents? You could devote a small corner of the garage to bugs. You might need to look into a heat pad during the winter depending on where you live. Just a thought.

Another thing for you to consider is finding a good vet ahead of time. There are many vets who deal with exotics and reptiles who still do not have much experience with chameleons. Because they are such specialized creatures it is best to find a vet who has chameleon-specific knowledge and experience. I've heard of many "reptile vets" that have done more harm than good because they really don't know much about chams. It can be difficult to locate a good chameleon vet so do it ahead of time so you know where they are located in an emergency.

I live in a major US city and there are still only two chameleon vets that come highly recommended. Both are about 1.5-2 hours away! Just another thing to consider.