vivarium?

[eldarado]

I have kept chameleons for years in a plexi glass vivarium with screen sides.
a false bottom and water fall system.just like the self maintaning vivariums they keep frogs in.I have not had one for a couple of years.
I was thinking of getting a another veild.but for some reason.I keep hearing you can't use a real moss subtrait with live plants.or no water fall feature built in.the zoo's have them..my chameleons lived full healthy lives with rarely any problems..you just have to moniter the feeding process..my enclosure was 75% land and 25% water..the land had a draining system that filtered through the water..with a layer of soil..the soil had planted moss and live plants.under the soil was plastic egg crating topped with a plastic screen and under the screen and eggcrating was hallow area for water flow.if you use a strong pump that filters the water the proper way.your fine..you risk having mites and bacteria eather way.with potted plants..6 years ago you could not even find full screen enclosures..screen sides are just fine..so what did the keepers do then..sorry I just think no subtrait and all screen enclosures is a new trend that came out of nowere..I have never heard of that until I been online..and now I hear no water falls..what?they been using them for years without problems..i do respect any ones opinion..but thats all it is..

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

i got yo back on this one

I hear allllllllllll that jazz about the no no's like waterfalls ect. to me all that is, is making the system less work. There is sooo much to keeping chameleons, and that’s what I think most people find attractive about them. im with you on this one, everyone is just getting lazy. I have an elaborate fountain in my enclosure and it certainly does take time to clean properly as often as needed but I don’t mind, I knew what I was getting into, my chams seem to enjoy drinking from it as well. and hey it’s MY piece of the jungle and I want it as realistic as possible. some of the cages I see now a days are soo bare, like hospitals

 

[Calavera]

When keeping any type of chameleon, you should always take their native habitat into consideration. There is a reason why chameleons are exclusive to only certain locals and therefore are exotic to their keepers. However, this does not mean that you can't improve such factors that may lead to a higher mortality rate in the wild. In the wild, veilds may die from predation, dehydration, or parasites. When a chameleon keeper owns a chameleon, the idea is to improve these conditions, but not "overdue" it by creating new potential hazards. Any "Jazz" like not including a waterfall in your chameleons enclosure is a way for you to prevent your chameleon from bacterial, parasitic, or fungal infections, which can cause serious health issues. I can assure you that although this may appear beautiful, the natural habitat of a Yemeni chameleon is not surrounded by waterfalls and tropical mosses. As for keeping a veiled in a glass or plexyglass enclosure, this creates a poorly ventilated enviornment, which can not only sufficate your chameleon on a hot day, but can also lead to the manifestation of respiratory mites. Think of what a waterfall would do to the humidity level in an a plexyglass vivarium. Veilds are from Yemen, the humidity there isn't as high as what it would be in an enclosure with a waterfall. Finally, chameleons are arboreal creatures and can barely walk of the ground, let alone swin in the water. I realize that you have a covering over your water basin, but others may not be as cautious and a chameleon would drown if it fell in. As for how people did it 6 years ago, before screen cages were available- screen cages have been available for much longer then that. Even before screen cages were popular, the chameleons kept in glass vivariums were not as healthy. There is a reason why today, more species of chameleons are successfully kept and bred in captivity then any other time. The advancements in husbandry, such as screen cages are the catalyst of this theory. As chameleon keepers, we learn from our mistakes, and repeat the procedures that yield success.

-Cala-

 

[Pashka]

I hear allllllllllll that jazz about the no no's like waterfalls ect. to me all that is, is making the system less work. There is sooo much to keeping chameleons, and that’s what I think most people find attractive about them. im with you on this one, everyone is just getting lazy. I have an elaborate fountain in my enclosure and it certainly does take time to clean properly as often as needed but I don’t mind, I knew what I was getting into, my chams seem to enjoy drinking from it as well. and hey it’s MY piece of the jungle and I want it as realistic as possible. some of the cages I see now a days are soo bare, like hospitals

health of chameleon > "beautiful enclosure"

 

[Calavera]

Thats a PERFECT way to sum it up, Pash.

 

[Vibrant Chameleons]

health of chameleon > "beautiful enclosure"

Definetly Agree

 

[Chill]

yah the waterfall thing i hear is never really good. If your gonna do the vivarium set up jus go with an entirely soil bottom and grow stuff in it. if the substrate is deep enough, you have a layer of somthing for water to collect in under the soil, and you have alot of plants you'll be jus fine with the drainage.

 

[eldarado]

o.k. I get what you are saying..like i said I respect all of you guys opinion..my cages alway's had screen sides,screen top,and this time I'm thinking screen front..but I don't see a problem plexi bottom and back.with a waterfall that has a good filter..or a subtrait with plants n moss.the moss won't get in there mouth its to solid of a subtrait..and the water always has tons of rocks and vines to climb on the way I set it up before..I never had a drowning prob.but i do see your worries..i have 15 years experience in keeping multible speices..veiled,jewled-carpet,a breeding pare of jacksons,and panther..its good to see people who really care about there chams.because I seen some crazy stuff on other sites n forums..like people keeping them without screens at all..all glass enclosures.and keeping tree frogs,fire belly toads,geckos,and other chams with them.not good.but I don't think there is a problem with a vivarium that has good ventilation..the water is ultra clean and you change 75% of the water every week..most of the time they don't go near the ground..I put potted plants on the backround with tubes that drain into the water..and I spray most of the time for drinking with distilled water..real moss is the best natural subtrait.its even better then potted plants.because they can still get stuff in there mouth.unless you cover the soil with rocks..crickets
go in that area.thank you guy's for the response..your advice means alot

 

[Pashka]

o.k. I get what you are saying..like i said I respect all of you guys opinion..my cages alway's had screen sides,screen top,and this time I'm thinking screen front..but I don't see a problem plexi bottom and back.with a waterfall that has a good filter..or a subtrait with plants n moss.the moss won't get in there mouth its to solid of a subtrait..and the water always has tons of rocks and vines to climb on the way I set it up before..I never had a drowning prob.but i do see your worries..i have 15 years experience in keeping multible speices..veiled,jewled-carpet,a breeding pare of jacksons,and panther..its good to see people who really care about there chams.because I seen some crazy stuff on other sites n forums..like people keeping them without screens at all..all glass enclosures.and keeping tree frogs,fire belly toads,geckos,and other chams with them.not good.but I don't think there is a problem with a vivarium that has good ventilation..the water is ultra clean and you change 75% of the water every week..most of the time they don't go near the ground..I put potted plants on the backround with tubes that drain into the water..and I spray most of the time for drinking with distilled water..real moss is the best natural subtrait.its even better then potted plants.because they can still get stuff in there mouth.unless you cover the soil with rocks..crickets
go in that area.thank you guy's for the response..your advice means alot

You can do whatever you want -- we don't have any control over you. But, I still disagree with you entirely. You seem to be more worried about the enclosure than your chameleon.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Enclosures and husbandry practices that are regularly recommended on this forum are ones that have proven most beneficial to the health, well being and general care of most old world chameleons.
Through trial and error, certain general rules of keeping these animals have become established. These rules help to form best case scenarios for success.
Very few (if any) members of this forum who care about their reputation are going to recommend practices very far outside of this model.

-Brad

 

[eldarado]

i need a explenation of the problem with a water fall.besides drowning it won't be deep enough.they most likelywon't even drink the water fall water..they only drink mist water off the leaves.Iwill liston to any opinion.I'm all ears..people have used water falls for years with great success..they started making them for chameleons..

 

[angus310]

the water being readily available lends itself to your cham pooping in it. If it drinks any of that water.....I think you get it.

 

[Pashka]

i need a explenation of the problem with a water fall.besides drowning it won't be deep enough.they most likelywon't even drink the water fall water..they only drink mist water off the leaves.Iwill liston to any opinion.I'm all ears..people have used water falls for years with great success..they started making them for chameleons..

Sure, you Chameleon will be healthy -- for now. You cannot know what will happen in the future though. Waterfalls make for an easy build up of mold and bacteria and this can either shorten your Chameleons life, or even kill him. It's better to stick on the safe side of things. I don't see why anyone would want to endanger their Chameleons life. How do you know he won't drink from the waterfall? Also, people may have had success with waterfalls, but I doubt they were or are anywhere as nearly successful with Chameleons as people with screen cages and without waterfalls. Waterfalls would also build up an excessive amount of humidity inside a vivarium. I would suggest getting pygmy/leaf Chameleons if you insist on using a vivarium.

people have used water falls for years with great success..they started making them for chameleons..

That's not true. They have been used for years and years and someone decided to start to use them with Chameleons.

 

[eldarado]

I know they are very fragile.but what is the difference between a chameleon drinking the water and another lizard drinking it?..the hard part about keeping chams.is heating them properly,stress factor,getting them to drink,humidity,all lizards run the risk of mites,and other problems.I know chams. are not for a beginer.but if care is taken.you can be successful.its like the people walking around with a tissue when touching door nobs or washing there hands every five mins.its out of control..yes people should keep there babys in a germ free hospital room.but they don't they keep them in there nice germ infested house.this country is out of control with the germ thing.its called an immune system.if it never encounters a single germ it won't be able to fight off a strong germ when it comes..what?do you think theres no risk in keeping a all screen enclosure outside.that seems more likely for diseases and germs..you go to a reptile show you will see them in enclosures with them exo terra water falls.not saying they all know there shit cause believe me they don't..but alot of these guy's are successful breeders and long time keepers..I think they would know what would really hurt the chameleon..my girlfreind works at the philadelphia zoo..they keep them in full vivariums..the veiled is five years old..they like moving water it lowers stress and makes them more active..them exo terra water falls are fine.if they poop in them you clean it and chang the water..whats so hard about that?what book or person came up with the no water fall thing?.that is a new one for me..there is a picture of a chameleon on the box..and I said screen sides and top.not a full plexi enclosure.all the books I ever read said ventilation on the sides of the tank..I have five books and they all say you can keep moving water in a enclosure.and they say screen sides and top or full screen..

 

[angus310]

Obviously, you are set in your ways and any time an opinion is given opposing your views, you continue to reiterate the same point.

 

[Dyesub Dave]

Well ... myself .... I always thought a waterfall or some sort of flowing mountain river idea would be great. The problems arise for keeping it clean. Also ... I would assume that it would be somewhat welcomed in a mesh enclosure as you would have the fresh air along with decent humidity which is difficult to achieve unless you buy and rig up an expensive misting system.

However I do understand about the cleanliness idea and just because they put a chameleon on the side of the box for something that they're selling doesn't meant that it's good for them. Most companies are out to make a quick buck and like to prey on people with something that looks cool.

I was just wondering how the POOP would be a problem if the water was flowing and being filtered ... etc. If it was well looked after I would think some sort of flowing water would benefit the chams. There'd always be a little that splashed up on a rock or plant for them to drink. And unless you clean your enclosure out several times a day there's always a chance that they could get some of their own POOP in their mouths ... like if a cricket is walking over their feces when they strike at it.

So while all the EXPERTS are saying not to use a waterfall I would definitely think that with enough determination and ingenuity somebody could build a successful waterfall / flowing stream that is practical, safe and aesthetically pleasing for both the chams and ourselves. My chams hate to be sprayed so I think that they would prefer this as long as it would be safe for them to drink!

Basically my point is instead of saying that IT CAN'T or SHOULDN'T BE DONE we should perhaps find ways that IT CAN BE DONE in a safe and rewarding way. Hell ... if we can create a SPACE STATION I'm sure that somebody can figure out a way to make a water flow system safe for a chameleon!!

When I figure it out I'll let you all know!! LOLOLOL

Dyesub Dave.

 

[angus310]

Quick Points -
The waterfalls with the cham on the side do not have an adequate filter.
If poops sits in water, even new fresh water it becomes contaminated.
Too much water means drowned feeders; thus, further contamination.
You would have to clean it thoroughly daily and instantly once the cham poops in it.
Feces is processed WASTE, that your body can not use and is filled with bacteria.

The only way this could work would be to put a solid cover on the basin part of the waterfall to keep poop out and for a manufacturer to make a waterfall with a major filtration system. It would also need a heating cooling unit to keep the water temp a consistent temp. If the waterfall is on the bottom of the cage, make sure no perch in any way is right above it, which would be hard because you would like the current waterfall system to be in the heating lamps general area.

 

[Dyesub Dave]

I still have a question about the whole feces problem. Obviously feces in the water will contaminate it and needs to be eliminated but it's sounding like any amount of feces is fatal for a chameleon. We clearly don't want our chams to be ingesting this stuff but do our chams not defecate on the leaves and sticks in their enclosures? And when we spray are we 100% positive that they are not drinking water which has dripped or flowed through their freshly made pile of poop?

While I definitely agree with many of the points made against waterfalls I still believe that there would be a way to accomplish this that would be beneficial for our chams.

I also don't like the pre-packaged waterfall options as I've heard that they're rather useless, a pain in the butt to clean and a cesspool for bacteria. My point was that wouldn't it be possible to make a home-made enclosure with some sort of successful water flow system? Perhaps the water could flow right out of the cage into a filtering system that fairly easy to clean. Is there anything that can be added to the water that would kill bacteria but be safe for chameleons? Maybe mesh could be put around the waterfall as to stop feeders from getting in but still allowing water droplets and moisture throughout the enclosure.

If people can spend $500 on a high-tech misting system for there chams why not a water flow system?

Where there's a will ... there's a way!!

Dyesub Dave.

 

[angus310]

I believe the 2nd paragraph of my last post addresses your question on how it could be done and work.

 

[Dyesub Dave]

Yes ... I know ... I read that !! I was adding to your suggestions while agreeing with you about the pre-packaged waterfall systems and asking several new questions. I believe that would be in the 3rd paragraph of my last post.

I'm sure there are many different ways it could be done which is why I'm posting about it. The more great minds that find pros and cons with different suggestions the better the final solution will be.

And as for the POOP thing ... can't we just litter train our chams ... or get little diapers for them?? Kidding ... obviously !!

Dyesub Dave.